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EPISTEMOLOGY: The Key to Everything
 

Brother Chris
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Join date: May 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 17056

Tiribulus wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
My mistake Christopher, I see now that you were telling me to define "foreordain". Hopefully tonight. Your steadfastness with me IS admirable btw, I mean that truly, though I'm not tremendously blessed by your edgy irritability lately.


Haven't been irritable since I started taking Brain Candy.
It must be a hallucinogen in your case as well =)


I don't know what hallucinogens are or their effects. Unless being sleep deprived is close, that is about as far as my mind tricks go.

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Tiribulus
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Join date: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
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Brother Chris wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Chris, can you please give me a one or two sentence assessment of what you think of John Calvin?


Love men, slay error.

The man was more Catholic (as in the amount of truth he held up as truth: Mary, Saints, Confession, Eucharist, are some that come off the top of my head) than some who believe themselves to be faithful Catholics. He wanted to be his own Pope at the end of the day, which ultimately stems from a lack of humility. Like Luther, if he would have actually stayed in the Church instead of committing schism, he'd likely have a S and a T in front of his name.

I don't know much about John Calvin's person life, so his theological writing (which is really the only thing I studied about him in seminary) is about as far as I go. Not surprising both Luther and Calvin were pretty Catholic (besides the whole schism thing, but I guess only Catholics make schisms so I guess it is a pretty Catholic thing to do after all) in their beliefs. I started learning about Mary because of Luther, I started asking about confession because of Luther. I learned the Rosary because of Calvin.
There is no way you've read Calvin in any detail Chris. Was he evil, intelligent etc?

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JoabSonOfZeruiah
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Location: Texas, USA
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http://librivox.org/...by-john-calvin/
I for the most part prefer to listen to rather than read such lengthy works. The works of Aquinas, Augustine, Aristotle and others are there as well.

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Tiribulus
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
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I had not heard of that site Brother Joab. Great find. It also warms my heart to see you in this thread. However briefly. Maybe I'll put Augustine's "The City of God" on some cd's for the car for another go through.

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forbes
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Join date: May 2008
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All I see is: "you don't know anything about my faith. Come back when you do" "No, you don't know anything about mine. You are the one in error"

In all honesty nobody here knows how to explain things. If I had half the knowledge that anybody here does then I'd darn be sure that I'd do my best to explain things, not just bicker or answer a question with a question.

I'll tell ya, as a Christian, IF I were a non believer, this thread (amongst others) would do the Christian faith disservice. No offence to anyone here but that's the way it is.

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Fletch1986
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Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 4864

forbes wrote:
All I see is: "you don't know anything about my faith. Come back when you do" "No, you don't know anything about mine. You are the one in error"

In all honesty nobody here knows how to explain things. If I had half the knowledge that anybody here does then I'd darn be sure that I'd do my best to explain things, not just bicker or answer a question with a question.

I'll tell ya, as a Christian, IF I were a non believer, this thread (amongst others) would do the Christian faith disservice. No offence to anyone here but that's the way it is.


I learned a lot. I will admit that when that when it goes back and forth about which is the better/more consistent/more cool/more whatever sect of Christianity I get lost real fast and lose some interest. But mostly just because I don't know what the heck they're talking about.

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Tiribulus
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Join date: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 16195

forbes wrote:
All I see is: "you don't know anything about my faith. Come back when you do" "No, you don't know anything about mine. You are the one in error"

In all honesty nobody here knows how to explain things. If I had half the knowledge that anybody here does then I'd darn be sure that I'd do my best to explain things, not just bicker or answer a question with a question.

I'll tell ya, as a Christian, IF I were a non believer, this thread (amongst others) would do the Christian faith disservice. No offence to anyone here but that's the way it is.
We're in a lull right now little brother. That's OK, please be patient. It 's good actually that it's now because I have godly offline responsibilities of the most grave and monumental order that are, by no complaint of mine, justly consuming much time I already didn't have. The Lord will always make a way for His will to be accomplished. Chris and I will likely bicker for years to come still. I love that kid and he knows it.

Look back through earlier pages. As Cortes said. There's easily a month's worth of substantive discussion there. Fletch has been with us all along the way too. Without Kamui this thread would not have been what it is. I understand your frustration. "Let's get back to it already huh!?!?!?!??" All will come when due. You'll see. Now for a relaxing worship break with a P.C.D. song. I'm not a big fan of the pictures,(or most contemporary "Christian" music for that matter) but this song is utterly magnificent.
Ohhhh praise His glorious name. "Blessing and honor and glory and power forever to our God " indeed !!!!!!! Star of the morning, light of salvation, majesty.... God of all mysteries, Lord of the universe... righteous King!!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!

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swhole milk
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Not going to read 25 pages, but, is it the belief of the theistic in this thread, Christians in particular, that God is: all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

If not, which is the caveat and why?

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Fletch1986
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Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
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swhole milk wrote:
Not going to read 25 pages, but, is it the belief of the theistic in this thread, Christians in particular, that God is: all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

If not, which is the caveat and why?


The 25 pages if your really interested in this type of thing would be worth it to read. Actually a lot of productive discussion and not the normal 'I'm right, your wrong' type of arguments. There's a ton that has to be established before that question comes into play.

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Tiribulus
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Join date: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
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Fletch1986 wrote:
swhole milk wrote:
Not going to read 25 pages, but, is it the belief of the theistic in this thread, Christians in particular, that God is: all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

If not, which is the caveat and why?


The 25 pages if your really interested in this type of thing would be worth it to read. Actually a lot of productive discussion and not the normal 'I'm right, your wrong' type of arguments. There's a ton that has to be established before that question comes into play.
Very good indeed Fletch =] Don't take this the wrong way but I'm prouda ya. You have quite rightly spoken here.

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Fletch1986
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Join date: Aug 2007
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Tiribulus wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
swhole milk wrote:
Not going to read 25 pages, but, is it the belief of the theistic in this thread, Christians in particular, that God is: all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

If not, which is the caveat and why?


The 25 pages if your really interested in this type of thing would be worth it to read. Actually a lot of productive discussion and not the normal 'I'm right, your wrong' type of arguments. There's a ton that has to be established before that question comes into play.
Very good indeed Fletch =] Don't take this the wrong way but I'm prouda ya. You have quite rightly spoken here.


Thanks. I've learned so much in the past couple of months thanks to bright people like you. It's really hard to find people who a) are even willing to touch the subject with a 10ft pole b/c of it's potentially divisive effect and b)have the intellect and possibly the most important c) an open inquisitive mind.

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Tiribulus
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Join date: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 16195

Fletch1986 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
swhole milk wrote:
Not going to read 25 pages, but, is it the belief of the theistic in this thread, Christians in particular, that God is: all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

If not, which is the caveat and why?


The 25 pages if your really interested in this type of thing would be worth it to read. Actually a lot of productive discussion and not the normal 'I'm right, your wrong' type of arguments. There's a ton that has to be established before that question comes into play.
Very good indeed Fletch =] Don't take this the wrong way but I'm prouda ya. You have quite rightly spoken here.
Thanks. I've learned so much in the past couple of months thanks to bright people like you. It's really hard to find people who a) are even willing to touch the subject with a 10ft pole b/c of it's potentially divisive effect and b)have the intellect and possibly the most important c) an open inquisitive mind.
Well that's very gracious and gratifying my friend. Thank you. You warm this old fundamentalist heart.

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swhole milk
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Fletch1986 wrote:
swhole milk wrote:
Not going to read 25 pages, but, is it the belief of the theistic in this thread, Christians in particular, that God is: all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

If not, which is the caveat and why?


The 25 pages if your really interested in this type of thing would be worth it to read. Actually a lot of productive discussion and not the normal 'I'm right, your wrong' type of arguments. There's a ton that has to be established before that question comes into play.


I do believe that the previous 25 pages are interesting, I simply can't afford a distraction of that depth during finals week. Nor should I give a potentially stimulating discussion less than full attention.

*Does* much have to be established? Let us not be mired by the perceived complexity of the issue. If clarification is required, I shall provide it.

You will forgive me for barging in, I hope, but it seemed the discussion had dwindled.

If one still feels that there is too much that must be established before this question can be addressed, surely that one can share with me what foundation is necessary to raise this query.

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Tiribulus
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You have not "barged in" and are welcome. I am the author of this thread, but not the owner of this site and would never be so crass or presumptuous as to discourage anyone from participation. Fletch's point, which tells me he HAS learned a lot, is that the argument which he recognizes you are about to make(and so do I) is dealt with by definition in the course of what has already been discussed in microscopic detail in this thread. He meant no offense and neither do I.

You have a productive attitude it appears. Get your responsibilities handled and dig in when you can, would be my advice, which you are obviously free to follow or not.

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Fletch1986
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Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 4864

swhole milk wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
swhole milk wrote:
Not going to read 25 pages, but, is it the belief of the theistic in this thread, Christians in particular, that God is: all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful?

If not, which is the caveat and why?


The 25 pages if your really interested in this type of thing would be worth it to read. Actually a lot of productive discussion and not the normal 'I'm right, your wrong' type of arguments. There's a ton that has to be established before that question comes into play.


I do believe that the previous 25 pages are interesting, I simply can't afford a distraction of that depth during finals week. Nor should I give a potentially stimulating discussion less than full attention.

*Does* much have to be established? Let us not be mired by the perceived complexity of the issue. If clarification is required, I shall provide it.

You will forgive me for barging in, I hope, but it seemed the discussion had dwindled.

If one still feels that there is too much that must be established before this question can be addressed, surely that one can share with me what foundation is necessary to raise this query.


Finals are killing me too. I feel your pain. Back to describing how I would analyze for lead in catfish via atomic absorbance spectroscopy.

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pookie
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Join date: Dec 2004
Location: Quebec, CAN
Posts: 6414

Tiribulus wrote:
POOOOOOKEEE, where are you?


I'll be your pookie for today. How can I help you?

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Neuromancer
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Join date: Nov 2002
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1727

pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
POOOOOOKEEE, where are you?


I'll be your pookie for today. How can I help you?



Shit just got real up in here.

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Tiribulus
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
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pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:POOOOOOKEEE, where are you?
I'll be your pookie for today. How can I help you?
Oh there you are. =] Thanks for poppin in. You were one of the people here who I was wondering if they'd ever given any concentrated thought to the topic this thread. Why? Because you are a frighteningly sharp guy (with better computer skills than me =[ ) who hates my God. Teh same God who has seen fit to lead you in here right when I am least equipped timewise to engage you. Bless His wisdom and holy name lol. If you have any interest, I will do my best though it will be tough. This thread so far and recent pages in Brother Chris's thread on metaphysics will fill you in so far. If not? I'm still glad to have seen you drop by.

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Brother Chris
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Join date: May 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 17056

Tiribulus wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Chris, can you please give me a one or two sentence assessment of what you think of John Calvin?


Love men, slay error.

The man was more Catholic (as in the amount of truth he held up as truth: Mary, Saints, Confession, Eucharist, are some that come off the top of my head) than some who believe themselves to be faithful Catholics. He wanted to be his own Pope at the end of the day, which ultimately stems from a lack of humility. Like Luther, if he would have actually stayed in the Church instead of committing schism, he'd likely have a S and a T in front of his name.

I don't know much about John Calvin's person life, so his theological writing (which is really the only thing I studied about him in seminary) is about as far as I go. Not surprising both Luther and Calvin were pretty Catholic (besides the whole schism thing, but I guess only Catholics make schisms so I guess it is a pretty Catholic thing to do after all) in their beliefs. I started learning about Mary because of Luther, I started asking about confession because of Luther. I learned the Rosary because of Calvin.
There is no way you've read Calvin in any detail Chris. Was he evil, intelligent etc?


There is no way you've read Calvin in detail. He was a lawyer, and he was very Catholic (though schismatic). He was smart enough to con himself into believing he was following the truth, whether one can say that is intelligent or not. Did he commit evil? Yes.

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pookie
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Tiribulus wrote:
Oh there you are. =] Thanks for poppin in. You were one of the people here who I was wondering if they'd ever given any concentrated thought to the topic this thread.


Some, but mostly while highly inebriated (about at the stage where loud volume can compensate for lack of factual arguments), so I'm not quite sure how concentrated the thoughts were.

Why? Because you are a frighteningly sharp guy (with better computer skills than me =[ ) who hates my God.


I don't hate your (or anyone else's) God. I wish I did, I'd love to be able to honestly use that Riddick line from Pitch Black about absolutely hating the fucker. It's mostly his followers I take exception to. And only when their beliefs interfere with my life and personal freedoms. Believe what you want, but don't force me to and we'll get along great.

Teh same God who has seen fit to lead you in here right when I am least equipped timewise to engage you.


So he's the one responsible for that typo when I put "tit nation" in the search engine. Dammit.

Bless His wisdom and holy name lol. If you have any interest, I will do my best though it will be tough. This thread so far and recent pages in Brother Chris's thread on metaphysics will fill you in so far. If not? I'm still glad to have seen you drop by.


I might jump into a new thread sometime... I've checked out a few, but somehow I have no motivation to read 20 pages to get up to speed. I posted to this one because I thought it amusing that I was still mentioned by name when my last visit was about two years ago...

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Fletch1986
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Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 4864

pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Oh there you are. =] Thanks for poppin in. You were one of the people here who I was wondering if they'd ever given any concentrated thought to the topic this thread.


Some, but mostly while highly inebriated (about at the stage where loud volume can compensate for lack of factual arguments), so I'm not quite sure how concentrated the thoughts were.

Why? Because you are a frighteningly sharp guy (with better computer skills than me =[ ) who hates my God.


I don't hate your (or anyone else's) God. I wish I did, I'd love to be able to honestly use that Riddick line from Pitch Black about absolutely hating the fucker. It's mostly his followers I take exception to. And only when their beliefs interfere with my life and personal freedoms. Believe what you want, but don't force me to and we'll get along great.

Teh same God who has seen fit to lead you in here right when I am least equipped timewise to engage you.


So he's the one responsible for that typo when I put "tit nation" in the search engine. Dammit.

Bless His wisdom and holy name lol. If you have any interest, I will do my best though it will be tough. This thread so far and recent pages in Brother Chris's thread on metaphysics will fill you in so far. If not? I'm still glad to have seen you drop by.


I might jump into a new thread sometime... I've checked out a few, but somehow I have no motivation to read 20 pages to get up to speed. I posted to this one because I thought it amusing that I was still mentioned by name when my last visit was about two years ago...



Not all of it is bible thumping and the Christians raise some good points too. I do understand it's quite a time commitment.

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Tiribulus
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Fletch1986 wrote:<<< Not all of it is bible thumping and the Christians raise some good points too. I do understand it's quite a time commitment.
Yeah, even the Christians LOL!!! Thanks Fletch LOL!

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Tiribulus
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Headhunter wrote:<<< Yes, there is a God. But The God of Spinoza is a lot closer to the real God. >>>
Please elucidate a bit further.

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Tiribulus
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Tiribulus wrote:
Sincerely putting all of our recent tensions aside Sloth. YOU have it backwards. The mere state of being concious along with the data of the senses are so much blank nothingness unless subjected to an entirely unprovable and pre assumed framework of interpretation we call in the English language "logic". Your general conclusion is true, but is in my view framed in an ineffective way and itself pre assumes what I've been droning on about it seems like forever now here. How do we account even for our own subjective self aware consciousness? To say nothing of the objective data that is incessantly bombarding it?

Again. To all of our self proclaimed evidence addicts around here. It's at this level that you have no, none, ZEEROH answers and do in fact inescapably assume mine before even one minimally ineligible thought can occur in your mind. I embrace that with Joy, giving my Lord glory for His brilliant and magnificent creation because I have been put at peace with Him through the work of my savior and love Him for it.

You run from it, because you hate Him for holding you morally responsible to Himself and will concoct all manner of bizarre and foolhardy methods of convincing yourself it isn't so. I'm watching it all around me. I was once just like you. In fact my rebellion AFTER knowing better is far worse than what any of you guys are doing. He is merciful indeed and faithful to His covenant brother, bride and son which He has made me in Christ. Don't ever think I look down on any of you people.

Cortes wrote:
But seriously, I still don't get why you get to make claims such as the very bold one you've made to Sloth, above, yet it doesn't count for Catholics. Probably should move it to the epistemology thread, but I'd like to hear an answer to this.
Please phrase the question a bit differently as I'm not sure I understand. I think so, but wanna be sure.

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Cortes
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Join date: Mar 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 7145

Tiribulus wrote:
Cortes wrote:
Sincerely putting all of our recent tensions aside Sloth. YOU have it backwards. The mere state of being concious along with the data of the senses are so much blank nothingness unless subjected to an entirely unprovable and pre assumed framework of interpretation we call in the English language "logic". Your general conclusion is true, but is in my view framed in an ineffective way and itself pre assumes what I've been droning on about it seems like forever now here. How do we account even for our own subjective self aware consciousness? To say nothing of the objective data that is incessantly bombarding it?

Again. To all of our self proclaimed evidence addicts around here. It's at this level that you have no, none, ZEEROH answers and do in fact inescapably assume mine before even one minimally ineligible thought can occur in your mind. I embrace that with Joy, giving my Lord glory for His brilliant and magnificent creation because I have been put at peace with Him through the work of my savior and love Him for it.

You run from it, because you hate Him for holding you morally responsible to Himself and will concoct all manner of bizarre and foolhardy methods of convincing yourself it isn't so. I'm watching it all around me. I was once just like you. In fact my rebellion AFTER knowing better is far worse than what any of you guys are doing. He is merciful indeed and faithful to His covenant brother, bride and son which He has made me in Christ. Don't ever think I look down on any of you people.
Cortes wrote:
But seriously, I still don't get why you get to make claims such as the very bold one you've made to Sloth, above, yet it doesn't count for Catholics. Probably should move it to the epistemology thread, but I'd like to hear an answer to this.
Please phrase the question a bit differently as I'm not sure I understand. I think so, but wanna be sure.


How come you can be certain, but Catholics are still supposedly stuck in the same loop of uncertainty as atheists? But also certain other denominations of Christians can be certain. But not some other Protestant branches?

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