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therajraj
Level 1
Join date: Dec 2008
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 7726
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http://www.csmonitor.com/...t-birth-control
The Obama administration has stirred up new and vocal opposition to its health-care law, as Roman Catholic institutions confront a rule that in their view violates religious liberty.
Institutions with ties to the Catholic church, such as hospitals and schools, say they are getting no exemption from a rule requiring that health insurance plans cover contraceptive services. The administration announced the rule, arising from the Affordable Care Act of 2010, about 10 days ago.
This past weekend, it became a topic in Catholic parishes across the country, as priests delivered statements opposing the step.
They argue that it amounts to forcing members of the church, which has long opposed birth control, to offer it or pay for it in health plans. The coverage of contraceptive services could include abortion-inducing drugs, the church says.
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Sloth
Level 0
Join date: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 11295
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Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that'll be the result of this, by the way.
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Sloth
Level 0
Join date: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 11295
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Somehow, a non-denominational banner in a school is bad. Making Catholics (or anyone for that matter, why should atheists?) pay for birth control coverage...Exactly what the founders had in mind! Isn't it obvious? Heh, doomed.
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orion
Level 4
Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 18315
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Sloth wrote:
Somehow, a non-denominational banner in a school is bad. Making Catholics (or anyone for that matter, why should atheists?) pay for birth control coverage...Exactly what the founders had in mind! Isn't it obvious? Heh, doomed.
So?
Sooner or later it was bound to come to a clash, time to show where your allegiance lies.
Mother Church or the Fatherland and dont worry if they start calling you a terrorist, what is the worst that could possibly happen?
Oh right, well, cant be worse than lions, right !?!
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Sloth
Level 0
Join date: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 11295
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orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Somehow, a non-denominational banner in a school is bad. Making Catholics (or anyone for that matter, why should atheists?) pay for birth control coverage...Exactly what the founders had in mind! Isn't it obvious? Heh, doomed.
So?
Sooner or later it was bound to come to a clash, time to show where your allegiance lies.
Mother Church or the Fatherland and dont worry if they start calling you a terrorist, what is the worst that could possibly happen?
Oh right, well, cant be worse than lions, right !?!
Nothing so dramatic. Just drop coverage for all employees.
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orion
Level 4
Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 18315
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Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Somehow, a non-denominational banner in a school is bad. Making Catholics (or anyone for that matter, why should atheists?) pay for birth control coverage...Exactly what the founders had in mind! Isn't it obvious? Heh, doomed.
So?
Sooner or later it was bound to come to a clash, time to show where your allegiance lies.
Mother Church or the Fatherland and dont worry if they start calling you a terrorist, what is the worst that could possibly happen?
Oh right, well, cant be worse than lions, right !?!
Nothing so dramatic. Just drop coverage for all employees.
Well, they did not start out with lions either.
But there will come a time where you can not weasel out of a decision and I do not think that it is that far off.
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pat
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 12536
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Sloth wrote:
Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that'll be the result of this, by the way.
That is exactly what will happen. It isn't the contraceptives as much as the mandate also includes abortion services and previously said abortion medications.
What choice is there? The church, in good conscience, support these abominations on it's dime. It goes against what we believe. If we accepted it as is, then our words mean nothing. So we have to refuse this.
It is a fact that this health bill is the largest expansion of abortion services on the tax payer dime in the history of the U.S.
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orion
Level 4
Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 18315
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pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that'll be the result of this, by the way.
That is exactly what will happen. It isn't the contraceptives as much as the mandate also includes abortion services and previously said abortion medications.
What choice is there? The church, in good conscience, support these abominations on it's dime. It goes against what we believe. If we accepted it as is, then our words mean nothing. So we have to refuse this.
It is a fact that this health bill is the largest expansion of abortion services on the tax payer dime in the history of the U.S.
But isnt it grand how every reform brings up the topics that we all know will never be resolved, whereas the ones that could are being held at the back of the stage?
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pat
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 12536
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orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that'll be the result of this, by the way.
That is exactly what will happen. It isn't the contraceptives as much as the mandate also includes abortion services and previously said abortion medications.
What choice is there? The church, in good conscience, support these abominations on it's dime. It goes against what we believe. If we accepted it as is, then our words mean nothing. So we have to refuse this.
It is a fact that this health bill is the largest expansion of abortion services on the tax payer dime in the history of the U.S.
But isnt it grand how every reform brings up the topics that we all know will never be resolved, whereas the ones that could are being held at the back of the stage?
I am not sure what your talking about here. This is really about forcing the Catholic Church to provide the ability for and support financially something it is vehemently against. It's a first amendment issue. The church will not be able to provide it's employees with benefits that goes against it's teachings. It's like trying to make PETA employees support the NRA.
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orion
Level 4
Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 18315
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pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that'll be the result of this, by the way.
That is exactly what will happen. It isn't the contraceptives as much as the mandate also includes abortion services and previously said abortion medications.
What choice is there? The church, in good conscience, support these abominations on it's dime. It goes against what we believe. If we accepted it as is, then our words mean nothing. So we have to refuse this.
It is a fact that this health bill is the largest expansion of abortion services on the tax payer dime in the history of the U.S.
But isnt it grand how every reform brings up the topics that we all know will never be resolved, whereas the ones that could are being held at the back of the stage?
I am not sure what your talking about here. This is really about forcing the Catholic Church to provide the ability for and support financially something it is vehemently against. It's a first amendment issue. The church will not be able to provide it's employees with benefits that goes against it's teachings. It's like trying to make PETA employees support the NRA.
Sure and now eeeeeeerryyyyyyone can grandstand, have fundraiser dinners and whatnot, meanwhile the country is still broke, the wars go on, entitlements are still unsustainable....
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DoubleDuce
Level 4
Join date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 9955
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Ironically, this is exactly the thing the first amendment was written to prevent. It is funny how people today go out of there way to try and use the amendment to attack the church, then completely ignore it in a situation like this.
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pat
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 12536
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orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that'll be the result of this, by the way.
That is exactly what will happen. It isn't the contraceptives as much as the mandate also includes abortion services and previously said abortion medications.
What choice is there? The church, in good conscience, support these abominations on it's dime. It goes against what we believe. If we accepted it as is, then our words mean nothing. So we have to refuse this.
It is a fact that this health bill is the largest expansion of abortion services on the tax payer dime in the history of the U.S.
But isnt it grand how every reform brings up the topics that we all know will never be resolved, whereas the ones that could are being held at the back of the stage?
I am not sure what your talking about here. This is really about forcing the Catholic Church to provide the ability for and support financially something it is vehemently against. It's a first amendment issue. The church will not be able to provide it's employees with benefits that goes against it's teachings. It's like trying to make PETA employees support the NRA.
Sure and now eeeeeeerryyyyyyone can grandstand, have fundraiser dinners and whatnot, meanwhile the country is still broke, the wars go on, entitlements are still unsustainable....
Everybody is grandstanding anyway about anything. Problem avoidance or flat denial didn't just miraculously appear with this issue. Obama picked a fight he can't win, that's not our fault, we're just not going to do what he says and we will fight it in court.
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therajraj
Level 1
Join date: Dec 2008
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 7726
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How do hospitals with ties to Catholic churches work exactly?
Are they solely funded by donations? Is there just a place to pray within the hospital?
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pat
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 12536
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DoubleDuce wrote:
Ironically, this is exactly the thing the first amendment was written to prevent. It is funny how people today go out of there way to try and use the amendment to attack the church, then completely ignore it in a situation like this.
Well Christian bigotry is very much wide spread. Most people only selectively apply the rules. When it happens to them they care, when it happens to somebody they don't like, they suddenly do an about face...."Yeah, get them dumb molesting catholics! They're molesters everyone! They should abort them all."
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pat
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 12536
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therajraj wrote:
How do hospitals with ties to Catholic churches work exactly?
Are they solely funded by donations? Is there just a place to pray within the hospital?
Depends. Some are owned and operated by the church others are affiliated. And patients more pay the bills for most I am sure.
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ZEB
Level 0
Join date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 17042
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pat wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Ironically, this is exactly the thing the first amendment was written to prevent. It is funny how people today go out of there way to try and use the amendment to attack the church, then completely ignore it in a situation like this.
Well Christian bigotry is very much wide spread. Most people only selectively apply the rules. When it happens to them they care, when it happens to somebody they don't like, they suddenly do an about face...."Yeah, get them dumb molesting catholics! They're molesters everyone! They should abort them all."
Well said Pat.
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jre67t
Level 3
Join date: Aug 2005
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Was there not an article about Muslims being exempt from national health care due to there religion. Read this a while back when the bill was being pushed thru. Would the same not apply to other religions as well. No I am not sure about that aspect in the bill but I will try to look for it when I get a chance later tonight.
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limburg
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Join date: Mar 2011
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 241
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pat wrote:
It's like trying to make PETA employees support the NRA.
^^^Love this!
And make the Athiest hospitals pipe in muslim prayer calls.....
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defenderofTruth
Level 0
Join date: Sep 2010
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 62
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therajraj wrote:
How do hospitals with ties to Catholic churches work exactly?
Are they solely funded by donations? Is there just a place to pray within the hospital?
First, there is only one Catholic Church.
For a hospital to be tied with the Church there are a couple of things: 1) it must have some administrative functions carried out by either a Catholic diocese or a religious order in good standing with the Church, and/or 2) it is administered by an non-religious organization (read: an organization that isn't a group of monks or nuns) that sees its role as an apostolate of the Church (and is usually based in a certain diocese and subject to the authority of that diocesan bishop).
A Catholic Hospital is a non-profit hospital that exists solely to provide healthcare to a community. Most operate from the fees charged to patients, along with some assistance from the local diocese. As a Catholic Hospital, there is a Catholic chapel on premises, in which the Catholic chaplain (generally a priest) will say Mass daily. In order to be called a "Catholic" hospital, it must adhere to the moral teachings of the Catholic Church, as decided by the bishop in whose jurisdiction the hospital lies.
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therajraj
Level 1
Join date: Dec 2008
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 7726
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limburg wrote:
pat wrote:
It's like trying to make PETA employees support the NRA.
^^^Love this!
And make the Athiest hospitals pipe in muslim prayer calls.....
There's no such thing as an atheist hospital.
You must mean secular hospital. Big difference.
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defenderofTruth
Level 0
Join date: Sep 2010
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 62
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pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that'll be the result of this, by the way.
That is exactly what will happen. It isn't the contraceptives as much as the mandate also includes abortion services and previously said abortion medications.
What choice is there? The church, in good conscience, support these abominations on it's dime. It goes against what we believe. If we accepted it as is, then our words mean nothing. So we have to refuse this.
It is a fact that this health bill is the largest expansion of abortion services on the tax payer dime in the history of the U.S.
But isnt it grand how every reform brings up the topics that we all know will never be resolved, whereas the ones that could are being held at the back of the stage?
I am not sure what your talking about here. This is really about forcing the Catholic Church to provide the ability for and support financially something it is vehemently against. It's a first amendment issue. The church will not be able to provide it's employees with benefits that goes against it's teachings. It's like trying to make PETA employees support the NRA.
Sure and now eeeeeeerryyyyyyone can grandstand, have fundraiser dinners and whatnot, meanwhile the country is still broke, the wars go on, entitlements are still unsustainable....
Everybody is grandstanding anyway about anything. Problem avoidance or flat denial didn't just miraculously appear with this issue. Obama picked a fight he can't win, that's not our fault, we're just not going to do what he says and we will fight it in court.
This particular issue is part of the other issues mentioned, it is part of a pattern, one that if we've studied our history, we'd notice.
One of the first things that both Hitler and the National Socialists did, as well as Stalin in the United Soviet Socialist Republic did was to legalize contraception and abortion as well as cradle to grave entitlements. All this was done while eroding the Church by enticing some of its leaders with secular power (remember, Hitler and Stalin were atheists).
The same thing has been going on in the US for decades, just slower and less obvious. First, Catholic politicians were enticed to embrace contraception and abortion as a means to woo voters (after Roe v. Wade, there was a meeting at the Kennedy compound in Hyannisport with dissident Catholic clergy like Fr. Charles Curran for the express purpose to find a way to use abortion to attract voters). Then, those politicians were given places of power (Kennedy, Biden, Sibelius, Pelosi...). Now, those self-same politicians are the ones who are undermining the Church...just like what happened in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia (and is happening now in China).
It is a hallmark of Christianity to exist rather peaceably within a polity. In fact, Christians are called to obey the secular authorities insofar as those authorities do not ask the Christian to disobey God. However, polities haven't been able to exist peacably with Christians: it is an ongoing theme in history for secular rulers to continually assert the control and importance of the state over the Church. Numerous Byzantine Emperors did it. Louis XIV did it. Henry VIII did it, Elizabeth I (well, not her but her handlers) did it. The Tokugawa shoguns did it. Robespierre did it, Hitler did it, Stalin did it, and Mao did it.
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Tiribulus
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Join date: Aug 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 13599
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And every politician for the last half century at least in this country is doing it. (generally speaking)
It seems we have another apparently serious Catholic here boys n girls.
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therajraj
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Join date: Dec 2008
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 7726
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Hitler was a Catholic.
Lets not be delusional now.
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limburg
Level 0
Join date: Mar 2011
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 241
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therajraj wrote:
limburg wrote:
pat wrote:
It's like trying to make PETA employees support the NRA.
^^^Love this!
And make the Athiest hospitals pipe in muslim prayer calls.....
There's no such thing as an atheist hospital.
You must mean secular hospital. Big difference.
WHAT??????
Thats it. I want the US government to provide me an Athiest hospital because its my RIGHT to have one because I want one. And since I am only one person wanting this my rights are greater than anyone elses. I am being oppressed and everyone else must pay for it.
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Menthol
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Join date: Aug 2010
Location:
Posts: 173
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Michelle Malkin's article this morning is on the Obama administration's mandate to force Catholic hospitals, schools and charities to offer for free birth control. Thought it was a good read.
"First, they came for the Catholics"
http://michellemalkin.com/...-the-catholics/
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