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Can Atheists go to Heaven?
 

Brother Chris
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Dr.Matt581 wrote:

As to your question, no I do not believe in god. I do not discount the existence of a deity either. I just plain do not know and have no way of knowing.


I have held for most of my time that the agnostic is the honest man at the beginning. To start anywhere else is to have bias and to think otherwise is disillusion. One of the reasons I have loved the theology of B16 is because his premises are agnostic (he's deserves the title The Agnostic Pope for a reason). However, his conclusions are outright Christian.

However, I admit my conclusion has been twice so far the conclusion of B16, Jesus Christ is the Risen Messiah.

In full disclosure: once I didn't come to that conclusion. That atheism was founded on base emotions. Nevertheless, I admit that only the last of my three conclusions were based on using, or what could be considered, a sound mind.

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Brother Chris
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TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


No, you just seem to say things that we assume you know is nonsense. The reason why the above is nonsense is because about the only commission all Christians have is the obligation to go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them all Jesus has commanded.

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Tiribulus
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Please check the epistemology thread Chris. I'm trying to keep my word.

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TigerTime
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Brother Chris wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


No, you just seem to say things that we assume you know is nonsense. The reason why the above is nonsense is because about the only commission all Christians have is the obligation to go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them all Jesus has commanded.


Then they have two commissions, do they not? To make disciples of all nations and follow the teachings of Jesus? Also, specifically Jesus, or the OT stuff too?

Edit: Besides, this doesn't solve the problem. Regardless of what the commandment is, if the threat of failure is eternal Hell fire, it is better to keep it to yourself! Unless, of course, God is okay with ignoramuses going to Hell...

Or are you saying God would send you to Hell for NOT spreading his word? In which case, you are a coward, guilty of endangering everyone else by passing on this most sadistic of chain-letters.

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Tiribulus
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Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.

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TigerTime
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Tiribulus wrote:
Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.


Again, what response? I've gone back and I don't see any response of yours that I haven't addressed. Maybe you're not seeing my responses?

Anyway, the God you're describing is a cruel sadist prick. Really, that's An understatement. Sadism doesn't even begin to cover creating a being capable of pain with the intention and foreknowledge that you will put it through eternal tourture.

There is no love in a relationship that demands love at knife point.





Actually, that analogy doesn't really work given that the reality of the situation is much, much worse then the situation I'm trying to compare it to... I'm going to assume most Christians don't agree with you on this.

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Brother Chris
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njrusmc wrote:
Pat, I won't quote everything you said, but you say "You have to prove it wrong for it to be wrong."

Absolutely false. You must prove something right for it to be right. Otherwise, my argument that Blue Monkeys are the creators are the universe is equally valid as yours.


Truth is truth, a man's ability to prove such truth is irrelevant to it being right and correct.

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Brother Chris
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Tiribulus wrote:
Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.


Unless they are predestined to go to Heaven, in which case they can go full retard and still not be able to get to Hell.

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Tiribulus
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Brother Chris wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.


Unless they are predestined to go to Heaven, in which case they can go full retard and still not be able to get to Hell.
Inflammatory Christopher. An antinomian strawman that I have already denied a hundred times. No Calvinist believes what you said above which is yet another piece of evidence that you never were a knowledgeable one.

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kamui
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Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".

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Tiribulus
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kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".
Going going gone!!! Kamui hits another homer and that is a great way to phrase it. There is indeed NO "half grace". Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
For example.

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Brother Chris
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Tiribulus wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.


Unless they are predestined to go to Heaven, in which case they can go full retard and still not be able to get to Hell.
Inflammatory Christopher. An antinomian strawman that I have already denied a hundred times. No Calvinist believes what you said above which is yet another piece of evidence that you never were a knowledgeable one.


That's not Calvinist, Tirib. Never said it was.

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Brother Chris
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Tiribulus wrote:
kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".
Going going gone!!! Kamui hits another homer and that is a great way to phrase it. There is indeed NO "half grace". Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
For example.


I hear of nothing about missionaries in that verse.

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Brother Chris
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kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".


I meant illiterate and completely unintelligent, as we assumed the tribal savage to be. Not full retard as in doing bad, if God gives one efficacious grace, no matter one's circumstances, he cannot place an obstacle in the way of his own salvation. Not that he can put an obstacle in the way of his salvation and it will not matter, but that he will NOT be given the chance to place that obstacle in the way of his salvation.

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bigflamer
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pat wrote:
Actually it does a rather good job. You have to prove it wrong for it to be wrong.


Not how it works, patty cakes. YOU make the claim, so YOU prove it right.

Should be easy for you, right? If it's such a supportable claim then shower me with evidence, evidence NOT being a philosophical argument that uses god magic to create something from nothing. That's faith based reasoning, and it's shit.

pat wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Here's the difference between you and I; while neither of us know with a certainty how the universe was created, I'm not willing to fill in the gaps with "god did it".
I'm comfortable with the fact that there's ZERO evidence for any sort of a deity. Not one shred. I'm also comfortable with the fact that there's brilliant scientists out there who aren't willing to just fill in the gaps with "god did it", and are trying to figure the whole thing out.


Oh goody, you want to tell me the difference between you and I. You don't know me therefore you aren't qualified to make this determination.
This is not a "God of gaps" argument. If you understood the argument, then you'd know that. If you think it's a God of gaps argument, show me where. Don't give me your ignorant ad hominems, come on with it. Prove me wrong.
Oooooooo brilliant scientists! Now I am scared. Wow, really? This is your counter claim and appeal to Authority?
And if you are comfortable with ignorance, than why are you here? If you are going to have these discussions, you have to deal with the issue of God's existence. If you are comfortable not knowing, then you don't need to be here. This is about proving your case, which you have failed miserably thus far.
Your arguments are as follows. I read some books and some really smart people don't think God exists, therefore neither do I.

Hardly compelling but what ever floats your boat. I have actually heard better arguments by the flat earth society. Who actually make a really good case for their claims.


Again, I don't have to prove you wrong; prove yourself right first. But of course, you can't. Sorry about this, patty cakes, but there is ZERO evidence for the existence of any diety.

Zero.

None.

Doesn't exist.

And yes, I have read some books written by some really smart people, and yes they did in fact help in shaping me. They got me asking the right questions; questions that had no answers. They had me examining the evidence, of which there is none. They had me looking at religion with a critical, skeptical perspective, and it became obvious that religions and their gods are man made, not the other way around. With zero evidence to support the existence of any deity, I came to the conclusion that "god" does not exist.

"God" was created in mans image, not the other way around.

pat wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Science improves our lives and helps to explain our universe. Science doesn't settle for "god did it".

Do us all a favor, and just show us your evidence for the christian god, or any deity for that matter. After that, I'll apologize and get to praying. Until then, have fun with your god magic stories.


Science didn't ask the question or test it. Apparently you don't know much about science either. So tell me, when was the "God Experiment" conducted?

Further it's a ridiculousness notion, science just measures things. It infers causal relationships. It's an empirical philosophy that draws conclusions based on observation and is considered correct on the basis of correlations. Highly correlated events are thought to be true, poorly correlated events are false.

My proof is based on the cosmological argument from the point of contingency and you may want to learn it, if you really want to have this conversation. I don't care if you do or don't, but you saying stupid shit about it that isn't true doesn't help you in the least at proving your case.


Again, show me all of your evidence for god's existence. Go on, get to it, it should be easy for you. Your cosmological argument relies on a god, using god magic, to create something out of nothing. That's a fail, and it seems to be all you have.

Evidence or STFU

But even if I was to look past all of the holes on the cosmological argument, and we agreed that it does in fact prove the existence of a deity (LOL), it would do NOTHING to support the existence of your christian god, and all of his peculiar personality traits, which happen to also be the personality traits of mankind at large. Coincidence? I think not.

Gods are always made in MAN'S image, yours is no different.












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Tiribulus
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TigerTime wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.


Again, what response? I've gone back and I don't see any response of yours that I haven't addressed. Maybe you're not seeing my responses?

Anyway, the God you're describing is a cruel sadist prick. Really, that's An understatement. Sadism doesn't even begin to cover creating a being capable of pain with the intention and foreknowledge that you will put it through eternal tourture.

There is no love in a relationship that demands love at knife point.





Actually, that analogy doesn't really work given that the reality of the situation is much, much worse then the situation I'm trying to compare it to... I'm going to assume most Christians don't agree with you on this.
From page 13 of this thread
TigerTime wrote:
Tiribulus went to Africa to spread the word of God. After a number were raised from death in sin to life in Christ, the Holy Spirit convicted them and they forsook their pagan ways. A local approached him and asked;

"Minister, would God send a man who has never heard of Christianity to Hell?"
Tiribulus replied;

"Yes, He would and does"

"Then,"

said the local,

"PRAISE GOD HE SENT YOU TO TELL ME!!!!"

Had ta tune that up fer ya./quote

Read the ninth chapter of the book of Romans. I understand your autonomous point of view because I held it for 20 years, but He's God n you ain't. He is just, holy, righteous, loving merciful and gracious. All of creation will praise His name for both his lovingkindess AND His damming wrath. I'm not making light of your objection. It's the very one Paul addresses in the ninth chapter of Romans referenced above. I mean like EXACTLY the one.

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Tiribulus
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Brother Chris wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".
Going going gone!!! Kamui hits another homer and that is a great way to phrase it. There is indeed NO "half grace". Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
For example.
I hear of nothing about missionaries in that verse.
I hear no specifics at all Chris. Which is the point.
Brother Chris wrote:
kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".


I meant illiterate and completely unintelligent, as we assumed the tribal savage to be. Not full retard as in doing bad, if God gives one efficacious grace, no matter one's circumstances, he cannot place an obstacle in the way of his own salvation. Not that he can put an obstacle in the way of his salvation and it will not matter, but that he will NOT be given the chance to place that obstacle in the way of his salvation.
Is this a Catholic thing Brother Chris? It ain't this complicated man. BTW, illiteracy is not he same as a lack of intelligence. Tribal savages may be hiding the next Aquinas.

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Cortes
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Tiribulus wrote:
kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".
Going going gone!!! Kamui hits another homer and that is a great way to phrase it. There is indeed NO "half grace". Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
For example.


So, I have heard the answers before, but I would like to get a clear, hopefully concise one, to this question:

What was going on before your were graced with the power of the Holy Spirit (you personally or generally, doesn't matter)?

Okay, actually it's going to be a few questions, but they are all related and can probably mostly be adequately responded to with a single answer.

I'm sure you know that we, as Catholics, kind of snort at the idea that someone who proclaimed Jesus as his Savior with his mouth, then lived an ostensibly Christian life, then fell off the wagon hard, was not really graced at all. What do you think about this, and also what happens if he comes back into the fold and stays that way? What was going on up to then? What if he goes back and forth a whole bunch (as many do) but finally spends the last portion of his life living ostensibly as a Christian would? He was granted grace only at the very end, or perhaps not at all, right?

Again, I am pretty sure I know how you'll respond to all of this, but I'd like to hear your answer, Any other Protestants are welcome to answer, too, of course.

Finally, if grace is not ours to accept or resist, what then is the role of Satan in all of this? Isn't he just like a spooky backdrop of a creepy forest and some ominous organ music until we are finally thrown into the lake of fire where he will actually start doing something?

One more time, I assume you know these questions are not being asked from a position of ignorance, but of curiosity. Maybe they would have been better placed in my free will thread, but this is the hot topic at hand and I think they are appropriate to it.

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pegasus3
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Tiribulus wrote:
Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.


So people are condemned to hell for the sole purpose that they haven't heard of Jesus?

Even though god has put people in such locations that they are currently inaccessible, they are condemned to hell for not knowing Jesus. Condemned to hell for something completely outside their control. Missionaries are men/women who cannot access the Arctic circle with any ease TODAY, never mind a thousand years ago....never mind the Jungle. And god all knowing and all powerful, knows full well these are good people, knows they would accept Jesus if they were given the chance...but sends them to hell anyway? Does god not like these people and their ancestors? Should he not have put them in such places? It seems strange to create people with the sole purpose of sending them to hell. No chance of redemption, nothing, just hell.

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Brother Chris
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Tiribulus wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".
Going going gone!!! Kamui hits another homer and that is a great way to phrase it. There is indeed NO "half grace". Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
For example.
I hear of nothing about missionaries in that verse.
I hear no specifics at all Chris. Which is the point.
Brother Chris wrote:
kamui wrote:
Actually, if they are predestined to go to heaven (and if God is consistent), then they won't and can't "go full retard".
They are be predestined to live a christian life, too.
There's no "half grace".


I meant illiterate and completely unintelligent, as we assumed the tribal savage to be. Not full retard as in doing bad, if God gives one efficacious grace, no matter one's circumstances, he cannot place an obstacle in the way of his own salvation. Not that he can put an obstacle in the way of his salvation and it will not matter, but that he will NOT be given the chance to place that obstacle in the way of his salvation.
Is this a Catholic thing Brother Chris? It ain't this complicated man. BTW, illiteracy is not he same as a lack of intelligence. Tribal savages may be hiding the next Aquinas.


You're missing my point.

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TigerTime
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Tiribulus wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Making disciples of all nations IS following the teachings of Jesus. It appears that TigerTime still did not see my response to him, though it will differ significantly from Chris's. People who have never EVER heard the name of Jesus fall from the lips of their fellow man go to hell. To put it your way, yes, God is not only okay with "ignoramuses going to Hell". He decrees it. We send missionaries in His name knowing that He will save some who come under the preaching of His Word because we love Him and them.


Again, what response? I've gone back and I don't see any response of yours that I haven't addressed. Maybe you're not seeing my responses?

Anyway, the God you're describing is a cruel sadist prick. Really, that's An understatement. Sadism doesn't even begin to cover creating a being capable of pain with the intention and foreknowledge that you will put it through eternal tourture.

There is no love in a relationship that demands love at knife point.





Actually, that analogy doesn't really work given that the reality of the situation is much, much worse then the situation I'm trying to compare it to... I'm going to assume most Christians don't agree with you on this.
From page 13 of this thread
TigerTime wrote:
Tiribulus went to Africa to spread the word of God. After a number were raised from death in sin to life in Christ, the Holy Spirit convicted them and they forsook their pagan ways. A local approached him and asked;

"Minister, would God send a man who has never heard of Christianity to Hell?"
Tiribulus replied;

"Yes, He would and does"

"Then,"

said the local,

"PRAISE GOD HE SENT YOU TO TELL ME!!!!"

Had ta tune that up fer ya./quote

Read the ninth chapter of the book of Romans. I understand your autonomous point of view because I held it for 20 years, but He's God n you ain't. He is just, holy, righteous, loving merciful and gracious. All of creation will praise His name for both his lovingkindess AND His damming wrath. I'm not making light of your objection. It's the very one Paul addresses in the ninth chapter of Romans referenced above. I mean like EXACTLY the one.


I responded to that post.

So, if I understand you correctly, you accept, even embrace, the idea that God will create people knowing they will never hear about him and send them to Hell for not knowing about him...

It takes the fun out of debating when you wear your 'crazy badge' on your shoulder so casually.

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Tiribulus
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You understand correctly except for the fact nobody goes to hell because they never hear of Jesus. For the 100th time. They go to hell because they are capital criminals, guilty before his throne and justly condemned to eternal death. The fact that he saves ANYBODY is mercy unfathomable. I said the following a little while back to Raj

One bite of a piece of fruit in defiance of the command of the eternal God was eternal enough to plunge every last child of Adam that would ever be born into everlasting damnation. EVERYBODY, including me, deserves to be damned. God in His unthinkable mercy has provided the payment Himself so that some would be saved. The question isn't "why does God send people to hell?". The question is "why does He save ANYBODY at all?". He owes everybody the lake of fire, but graciously saves some from their sin having punished it already on the cross of Christ and defeated their death in His resurrection.

You don't understand. It's not what the action of any particular sin is that makes it eternal. It's who it is against. The fruit wasn't evil and it was just a bite. BUT, it was an attack on the authority of the spotlessly holy, almighty and righteous God. The entire 3rd chapter of the epistle of Paul to the Romans lays out in excruciatingly plain language that there is not one single descendant of Adam EVER that does good in the eyes of God. "no, not one".

Cortes. YOU I will always make time for as soon as it is humanly possible though the above is a partial answer. The rest of what I will say may or may not surprise you. As you have no doubt surmised, I have well developed views on those very topics =]
I am so far behind fellas. (and Leanna)

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orion
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Dr.Matt581 wrote:
orion wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
orion wrote:
Pretty sure that it is after anyone with a modicum of intelligence heard it the first time.

Oh, wait, He hath always been there.

Yeah, right.


So anyone with a modicum of intelligence heard something that wasn't being argued?


Anyone, and I mean anyone, that hears something like "anything has a cause expect for the uncaused cause that I will now postulate" (which is the point of the whole argument) and is not immediately skeptical should stick to the practical arts, like pulling lint out of his belly button.

And no BC, this is not a strawman, I fully understand the whole point and its bullshit.



Wow, I have been posting in the other religion thread and we are having this exact same argument. I do not know all the fancy philosophical terms like you and Pat do, but I have come to the same conclusions as you just based off of thinking it through.


Here is a better one, which is not really appreciated by many.

What he claims is that everything has a cause.

Yet, if you think about it, a causal relationship requires both time and space.

However, spacetime as we know it is a function of our universe.

Yet he claims that the universe itself has been caused by something or someone.

How would that be possible with our concept of causality?

edited

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Tiribulus
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orion wrote:<<<How would that be possible with our concept of causality?
NOTHING is possible except in GOD'S concept of it, including causality. I'm on your guy's side with the traditional logical "proofs". I believe they are almost worse than useless to modern educated people. I say again. The traditional "proofs" establish the possible existence of any god in general and the actual existence of no god in particular which is brushing shoulders with idolatry. The God I know and love is not interested in seeing his saints championing the possible existence of other gods. He commands that we be CERTAIN of His existence alone.

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orion
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Tiribulus wrote:
orion wrote:<<<How would that be possible with our concept of causality?
NOTHING is possible except in GOD'S concept of it, including causality. I'm on your guy's side with the traditional logical "proofs". I believe they are almost worse than useless to modern educated people. I say again. The traditional "proofs" establish the possible existence of any god in general and the actual existence of no god in particular which is brushing shoulders with idolatry. The God I know and love is not interested in seeing his saints championing the possible existence of other gods. He commands that we be CERTAIN of His existence alone.


Does that not make you wonder sometimes whether or not he is a tiny bit insecure?

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