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Can Atheists go to Heaven?
 

njrusmc
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Join date: Jun 2008
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Dr.Matt581 wrote:

As to your question, no I do not believe in god. I do not discount the existence of a deity either. I just plain do not know and have no way of knowing.


I don't see how anyone could disagree with this.

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groo
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Dr.Matt581 wrote:
groo wrote:
So at its base what do you think science is? Where would you get the idea that its not? Are you talking the specific proof? Or as a tool in frequency probability?


What I mean is this for inductive syllogisms we use probability to determine which we believe to be true. Much of science is this. Perhaps there is some cutting edge science that is not inductive that would not be this way. But at its base science is certainly a collection of syllogisms we assign truth to by probability perhaps if only by an intuitive means.


To be more relevant to this thread; Do you believe a god exists? And if so why?


Generally in my basic physics classes, I teach that science is the the study of natural phenomena through the use of testable explanations and predictions. That is good enough for this discussion. When Bayes was developing his statistical theorem, he took that into account in order to make sure that his theorem would be useful. But guess what? Almost every other mathematical and statistical theorem also does that. One theorem in one mathematical field, like Bayes Theorem, is not fundamental to, or the basis of, science. It is just a useful tool that we scientists use to describe our findings and to help us set up experiments. Scientists were doing research and work before Bayes Theorem and do so to this day without using Bayesian statistics. Mathematics, which also includes statistics depending on who you ask, is not even a necessary part of science, but is necessary to describe what we figure out through experimentation and it is very useful in setting up experiments.

As to your question, no I do not believe in god. I do not discount the existence of a deity either. I just plain do not know and have no way of knowing.

We end up in the same place. I edited my post after your quote. I was using bayesian analysis as a shorthand for what I said in the second paragraph incorrectly.

Basically I am saying belief probability is bayesian inference even without it being expressed mathematically or at least it tends to be. Not that we are using his theorem to analyze all science. I was not attempting to say it was the only way to statistically analyze data.


I would say though that not believing in god is the same as discounting one. Unless we are making this proposition different than other ones we don't believe to be probable.

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Tiribulus
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njrusmc wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
njrusmc wrote:<<< absolute truth is man made.
njrusmc wrote: mathematics <<<>>> is objective.
Could you pick one please? Which you pick will tell me whether to accept your declaration that you "don't have a firm belief in anything." Absolute sounds pretty firm.


Why must the two be mutually exclusive? I can believe absolute truth is man made (in the form of mathematics, specifically logic) and I can also believe that mathematics is objective, not subjective. I can state 2+2=4 and regardless of my voice inflexions or volume, the statement carries the same meaning. In no case is it false or questionable. If I tell someone to vacuum my carpet, my tone of voice will be subjectively judged to determine whether I am being hostile or not. Mathematics is objective and defines absolute truth ... and is man made.
"objective" MEANS "independent of the subjective self". In the case of logic, which you've claimed as true for everyone, that would be "independent of ALL subjective selves". In other words the exact opposite of "man made". Our definitions of objective at least, are different.
njrusmc wrote:<<< You based it off past evidence (which of course is based on scientific observation) and some other things I don't entirely recall. >>>
I assure you that weren't' me or you misunderstood. I am just as certain of every word I type about God as I am about 2+2 equaling 4. The latter depends on the former. It does for you too.

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TigerTime
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TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?

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sufiandy
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Join date: Aug 2009
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TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.

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Sloth
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sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.


He's on ignore, but I'll add to what you just said. Some of us have described a great big MIGHT. M-I-G-H-T. Which in no way suggests that the 'odds' for a particular non-christian getting a 'free pass' is even remotely 'as good' as one who has put his faith in Christ. And, that's about all I care to say.

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TigerTime
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sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.


I'd like to hear how a Christian would justify sending someone to Hell for not knowing about Jesus, especially considering he can materialize bibles for them any time he chooses.

Actually, that's another point. What need is there for Christians to go to these South American and African tribes? If God wants them, why doesn't he simply materialize bibles for them in their native languages?

It seems either God won't send these people to Hell (so their not high on his priority list), or he is intentionally making it much more difficult for them to get into Heaven than the rest of us. Is God racist now?

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therajraj
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njrusmc wrote:
Dr.Matt581 wrote:

As to your question, no I do not believe in god. I do not discount the existence of a deity either. I just plain do not know and have no way of knowing.


I don't see how anyone could disagree with this.


That's what atheists believe. Almost no atheist claims to KNOW with an absolute certainty there is no god.

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therajraj
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pat wrote:

There's not a 3rd option, it cannot be conceived because it cannot exist. The second you even try to rationalize it, you have introduced a something. That's why it's impossible. What does not exist, cannot do anything. To believe in atheism you have to believe this.
Except, it's totally and absolutely logically impossible. It's not that it hasn't been thought of, it's that it cannot happen.
Go ahead and try to posit a scenario where something can come from nothing?



And what you presented is a classic argument from ignorance.

Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, it is "generally accepted" (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three).[1] In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/..._from_ignorance

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therajraj
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pat wrote:

No. Deductive truths, by definition are necessarily true. If not, then you either don't have a deductive argument, or the argument is flawed.
Like I said, math is a form of deductive reasoning. Can you propose a scenario where 1+2 does not equal 3?
Try alternate universes, alternate realities, try what ever you like. If have 1 and you add 2 to it, you will always have 3. There is nothing you can do about it.


Let me ask you something. Are you infallible? Is there a human being on this planet that's infallible?

What I'm saying is logic and reason are processes used by our fallible minds. Since we are fallible, how can we ever be 100% certain that we have correctly interpreted an absolute truth?

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sufiandy
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TigerTime wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.


I'd like to hear how a Christian would justify sending someone to Hell for not knowing about Jesus, especially considering he can materialize bibles for them any time he chooses.

Actually, that's another point. What need is there for Christians to go to these South American and African tribes? If God wants them, why doesn't he simply materialize bibles for them in their native languages?

It seems either God won't send these people to Hell (so their not high on his priority list), or he is intentionally making it much more difficult for them to get into Heaven than the rest of us. Is God racist now?


Heaven awaits for those who believe and follow God/Jesus. If you have never heard of them how can you follow their teachings? Christians preaching to tribes believe they are doing them a favor, by offering them a way for salvation where they would otherwise have no chance of. God apparently only had 1 son, and travel was difficult back in those days so it makes sense the region of the world who learned of this by observation was a small area.

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TigerTime
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sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.


I'd like to hear how a Christian would justify sending someone to Hell for not knowing about Jesus, especially considering he can materialize bibles for them any time he chooses.

Actually, that's another point. What need is there for Christians to go to these South American and African tribes? If God wants them, why doesn't he simply materialize bibles for them in their native languages?

It seems either God won't send these people to Hell (so their not high on his priority list), or he is intentionally making it much more difficult for them to get into Heaven than the rest of us. Is God racist now?


Heaven awaits for those who believe and follow God/Jesus. If you have never heard of them how can you follow their teachings? Christians preaching to tribes believe they are doing them a favor, by offering them a way for salvation where they would otherwise have no chance of. God apparently only had 1 son, and travel was difficult back in those days so it makes sense the region of the world who learned of this by observation was a small area.


So... people who have never heard of Jesus go to Hell?

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YoungBeast
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i personably believe that if u live your life to wat wat you believe is good and moral then you will go to heavan if there is a heavan. That means if u believe that you shouldnt do something then dont. People dont have to go to church or do all of these ritauls that most religions teach i think there a waste of time. (personable opinion not trolling)

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YoungBeast
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Saying that sick people will go to hell is wrong somepeople were brought up in f***** up conditions and dont know any better that doesnt mean they deserve to go to hell. That like saying mass murderers that dont know any better should rot they should be given a chance to learn.

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sufiandy
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Posts: 2873

TigerTime wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.


I'd like to hear how a Christian would justify sending someone to Hell for not knowing about Jesus, especially considering he can materialize bibles for them any time he chooses.

Actually, that's another point. What need is there for Christians to go to these South American and African tribes? If God wants them, why doesn't he simply materialize bibles for them in their native languages?

It seems either God won't send these people to Hell (so their not high on his priority list), or he is intentionally making it much more difficult for them to get into Heaven than the rest of us. Is God racist now?


Heaven awaits for those who believe and follow God/Jesus. If you have never heard of them how can you follow their teachings? Christians preaching to tribes believe they are doing them a favor, by offering them a way for salvation where they would otherwise have no chance of. God apparently only had 1 son, and travel was difficult back in those days so it makes sense the region of the world who learned of this by observation was a small area.


So... people who have never heard of Jesus go to Hell?


I think the answer is its basically unknown what will happen to them. By being exposed to Christianity they are at least given a choice that will lead them in the right path vs the unknown.

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TigerTime
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sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.


I'd like to hear how a Christian would justify sending someone to Hell for not knowing about Jesus, especially considering he can materialize bibles for them any time he chooses.

Actually, that's another point. What need is there for Christians to go to these South American and African tribes? If God wants them, why doesn't he simply materialize bibles for them in their native languages?

It seems either God won't send these people to Hell (so their not high on his priority list), or he is intentionally making it much more difficult for them to get into Heaven than the rest of us. Is God racist now?


Heaven awaits for those who believe and follow God/Jesus. If you have never heard of them how can you follow their teachings? Christians preaching to tribes believe they are doing them a favor, by offering them a way for salvation where they would otherwise have no chance of. God apparently only had 1 son, and travel was difficult back in those days so it makes sense the region of the world who learned of this by observation was a small area.


So... people who have never heard of Jesus go to Hell?


I think the answer is its basically unknown what will happen to them. By being exposed to Christianity they are at least given a choice that will lead them in the right path vs the unknown.


All right, but there are problems with both options. If god does send ignoramuses to Hell, then he is basically creating them with the intention of sending him to Hell. If he doesn't, then the best thing you Christians can do for mankind is to do everything in your power to make sure nobody knows about Jesus so that everyone can get into Heaven.

Think of all the homosexuals who won't have to burn for all eternity. Unless you want them to burn...

This is a major flaw in Christianity and it's going to take more than saying, "It's unknown" to reconcile it.

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Tiribulus
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 16196

sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.
Did you miss the point I made in my response or are you just ignoring it. I believe they are damned whether they ever hear or not. Only those who surrender to Jesus on purpose got to heaven. Telling them is the greatest mission on Earth.

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sufiandy
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Join date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2873

Tiribulus wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.
Did you miss the point I made in my response or are you just ignoring it. I believe they are damned whether they ever hear or not. Only those who surrender to Jesus on purpose got to heaven. Telling them is the greatest mission on Earth.


Was that for me or TigerTime? I knew your opinion already, but do a majority of Christians share your belief?

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Tiribulus
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Join date: Aug 2006
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sufiandy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.
Did you miss the point I made in my response or are you just ignoring it. I believe they are damned whether they ever hear or not. Only those who surrender to Jesus on purpose got to heaven. Telling them is the greatest mission on Earth.


Was that for me or TigerTime? I knew your opinion already, but do a majority of Christians share your belief?
To him. Sorry man, I got in waaay late last night and was half asleep again.

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pat
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Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 17559

bigflamer wrote:
pat wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
pat wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
pat wrote:
..


Atheism: A realization that people come to not just because they ARE smart, but because they refuse to blindly believe in the mythology of the day, have a healthy skepticism, and are willing to throw the bullshit flag.


Yeah, because it relies on the belief that nothing can do something. Fucking brilliant....

Until you can prove that nothing can do something, your logic is a failure.


LOL....But your god (who magically always existed; convenient), was capable of creating something out of nothing, simply due to his magical god magic? Fucking brilliant....

Until you can make your argument without having to resort to the intellectual laziness of "my god and his magic powers did it", your logic will continue to be a failure.


Don't project your ignorance of the argument on me. The solution is simple and what must be the case. You can't prove it wrong. You can try to dodge this reality, but it doesn't change the fact that you can't refute it. Throwing out logical mistakes in a mocking tone is still fallacious. You obviously don't understand the argument at all.
Causation is a necessary part of existing, regressing it leads to a singular point, and an infinite regress is a logical fallacy because it begs the question.

What it does not claim:
-That God was caused
-That God came from nothing
-That God made something from nothing.
-It doesn't even say it's God. Just an 'Uncaused-cause", "Necessary Being", "Prime Mover", etc.

Causation is a necessary reality, not a magic trick. That's the point. You must be easily entertained.


You're a funny little guy, patty cakes. You keep clinging to this cosmological argument, to support...what? Your god? Because the cosmological argument does a piss poor job of that, for sure. As Orion said, at best it makes the case for the prime mover, but that's it. It makes no case for any sort of "god", and certainly not the god of your shitty bible.

Actually it does a rather good job. You have to prove it wrong for it to be wrong.


Here's the difference between you and I; while neither of us know with a certainty how the universe was created, I'm not willing to fill in the gaps with "god did it".
I'm comfortable with the fact that there's ZERO evidence for any sort of a deity. Not one shred. I'm also comfortable with the fact that there's brilliant scientists out there who aren't willing to just fill in the gaps with "god did it", and are trying to figure the whole thing out.

Oh goody, you want to tell me the difference between you and I. You don't know me therefore you aren't qualified to make this determination.
This is not a "God of gaps" argument. If you understood the argument, then you'd know that. If you think it's a God of gaps argument, show me where. Don't give me your ignorant ad hominems, come on with it. Prove me wrong.
Oooooooo brilliant scientists! Now I am scared. Wow, really? This is your counter claim and appeal to Authority?
And if you are comfortable with ignorance, than why are you here? If you are going to have these discussions, you have to deal with the issue of God's existence. If you are comfortable not knowing, then you don't need to be here. This is about proving your case, which you have failed miserably thus far.
Your arguments are as follows. I read some books and some really smart people don't think God exists, therefore neither do I.

Hardly compelling but what ever floats your boat. I have actually heard better arguments by the flat earth society. Who actually make a really good case for their claims.




Science improves our lives and helps to explain our universe. Science doesn't settle for "god did it".

Do us all a favor, and just show us your evidence for the christian god, or any deity for that matter. After that, I'll apologize and get to praying. Until then, have fun with your god magic stories.





Science didn't ask the question or test it. Apparently you don't know much about science either. So tell me, when was the "God Experiment" conducted?

Further it's a ridiculousness notion, science just measures things. It infers causal relationships. It's an empirical philosophy that draws conclusions based on observation and is considered correct on the basis of correlations. Highly correlated events are thought to be true, poorly correlated events are false.

My proof is based on the cosmological argument from the point of contingency and you may want to learn it, if you really want to have this conversation. I don't care if you do or don't, but you saying stupid shit about it that isn't true doesn't help you in the least at proving your case.

I can go with ontology to, but I seriously doubt you know shit about that, so I won't bother.

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pat
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Join date: Oct 2002
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therajraj wrote:
pat wrote:

There's not a 3rd option, it cannot be conceived because it cannot exist. The second you even try to rationalize it, you have introduced a something. That's why it's impossible. What does not exist, cannot do anything. To believe in atheism you have to believe this.
Except, it's totally and absolutely logically impossible. It's not that it hasn't been thought of, it's that it cannot happen.
Go ahead and try to posit a scenario where something can come from nothing?



And what you presented is a classic argument from ignorance.

Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, it is "generally accepted" (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three).[1] In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/..._from_ignorance


I know what the argument from ignorance is, and this is not it. There is not a third option because the argument doesn't allow for it, plain and simple. If you are talking about a third option you are either not dealing with this argument, or your not discussing deduction. It has nothing to do with no knowing or having yet to be presented with another option. This argument is right or wrong, and that's it. You have to study it to understand why I suppose.

You want proof? Go ahead, take the argument, list it out correctly, then show me this third option. Prove your case.

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pat
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therajraj wrote:
pat wrote:

No. Deductive truths, by definition are necessarily true. If not, then you either don't have a deductive argument, or the argument is flawed.
Like I said, math is a form of deductive reasoning. Can you propose a scenario where 1+2 does not equal 3?
Try alternate universes, alternate realities, try what ever you like. If have 1 and you add 2 to it, you will always have 3. There is nothing you can do about it.


Let me ask you something. Are you infallible? Is there a human being on this planet that's infallible?

Nope


What I'm saying is logic and reason are processes used by our fallible minds. Since we are fallible, how can we ever be 100% certain that we have correctly interpreted an absolute truth?



The mind processing the argument isn't what makes it true or false. The thing itself is true or false. Especially true in deduction, for instance, if you can find even one infinitesimal case where the argument doesn't hold true, then the whole argument is wrong.
So if you want to "get me" all you have to do is prove one instance in which causality is not true. If you find it, you have either found God, or proven the argument wrong.

Here's where your making your mistake. You basing your thoughts no one has yet found a case where it's not true. That's not the issue, the issue is logic doesn't really allow for existence to be true unless it's caused or it's the Uncaused-cause. <- Many briliant folks have tried to prove this not true, all have failed. But that alone doesn't make it true. What does is trying to disprove the premises and therefore the conclusion.
Can you think of another way for something to exist?
What is existence? Why is it true?

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njrusmc
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Pat, I won't quote everything you said, but you say "You have to prove it wrong for it to be wrong."

Absolutely false. You must prove something right for it to be right. Otherwise, my argument that Blue Monkeys are the creators are the universe is equally valid as yours.

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TigerTime
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Tiribulus wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
TigerTime wrote:
Really, the most humanitarian thing Christians can do for their fellow man is to never talk about their religion in the hopes that the next generation will all get a free pass.


Did all the Christians miss this one or are you guys purposefully ignoring this point?


That would only work if all Christians believed the same thing about the requirements for heaven.
Did you miss the point I made in my response or are you just ignoring it. I believe they are damned whether they ever hear or not. Only those who surrender to Jesus on purpose got to heaven. Telling them is the greatest mission on Earth.


Where is this response? Between those two comments you only made 2 responses, one to njrusmc and one to groo.

So, God, knowing in advance that there are going to be people who live and die without ever getting so much as the opportunity to learn about Jesus, will still sends these people to Hell for not worshipping him?

Grade 'A' God work there...

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TigerTime
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njrusmc wrote:
Pat, I won't quote everything you said, but you say "You have to prove it wrong for it to be wrong."

Absolutely false. You must prove something right for it to be right. Otherwise, my argument that Blue Monkeys are the creators are the universe is equally valid as yours.


Well, OBVIOUSLY God's existence debunks your hypothesis. How could blue monkeys have created the universe when God did? It's all in the bible... WHICH YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T EVEN READ! There, not you have to prove me wrong, or else I'm right! ;)

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