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California's Greek Tragedy
1
 

MaximusB
Level 5

Join date: Apr 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 13976

http://online.wsj.com/...=googlenews_wsj


"California's rising standards of living and outstanding public schools and universities once attracted millions seeking upward economic mobility. But then something went radically wrong as California legislatures and governors built a welfare state on high tax rates, liberal entitlement benefits, and excessive regulation. The results, though predictable, are nonetheless striking. From the mid-1980s to 2005, California's population grew by 10 million, while Medicaid recipients soared by seven million; tax filers paying income taxes rose by just 150,000; and the prison population swelled by 115,000."


Only 1% of those 10 million pay taxes.

Brought to you by the Democratic Mafia....ooops I meant Party.

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orion
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 24399

The interesting thing to me is that while it is wŪdely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.

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UtahLama
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Utah, USA
Posts: 6566

orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is wídely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question

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orion
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 24399

UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question


Not really.

Of course it comes up in elections but this has all very specific backgrounds.

F.e., we took a lot of people in when Yugoslavia broke up and this was always sold as temporary.

Now of course they speak the language, have a job and their village, town, whatever have been so thoroughly ethnically cleansed that they have nothing to go back too.

So while the official version is that the law is the law and whatnot we do all know of course that this is bullshit when every soccer player or opera singer can get citizenship in what feels like 5 minutes.

I also remember that a family with 2 small children was due to be thrown out of the country, at 4 in the morning so as to avoid any media attention..... the whole village was standing in front of their house, the police could not get through.

So in short, economic problems no and while a large part of the population probably feels some uneasiness when it comes to people with different religions and color of skin, their feelings can drastically change when it concerns a co worker or friends.

You should also keep in mind that a lot of the things that would fly in almost every other nation do not work here because one could say we have a very particular history regarding religious and ethnic tolerance.

Meaning, in a country where most people are just barely German and helped kill a few million people you either thread lightly or you are considered to be a dumb Nazi bastard which closes the door to a large part of what one could call polite and somewhat influential society.

Since Austria is small and Vienna, where pretty much anything of significance happens even smaller, you dont want those doors closed.

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orion
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 24399

Also, we have no former colonies, interesting how that turned out.

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UtahLama
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Utah, USA
Posts: 6566

orion wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√???√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question


Not really.

Of course it comes up in elections but this has all very specific backgrounds.

F.e., we took a lot of people in when Yugoslavia broke up and this was always sold as temporary.

Now of course they speak the language, have a job and their village, town, whatever have been so thoroughly ethnically cleansed that they have nothing to go back too.

So while the official version is that the law is the law and whatnot we do all know of course that this is bullshit when every soccer player or opera singer can get citizenship in what feels like 5 minutes.

I also remember that a family with 2 small children was due to be thrown out of the country, at 4 in the morning so as to avoid any media attention..... the whole village was standing in front of their house, the police could not get through.

So in short, economic problems no and while a large part of the population probably feels some uneasiness when it comes to people with different religions and color of skin, their feelings can drastically change when it concerns a co worker or friends.

You should also keep in mind that a lot of the things that would fly in almost every other nation do not work here because one could say we have a very particular history regarding religious and ethnic tolerance.

Meaning, in a country where most people are just barely German and helped kill a few million people you either thread lightly or you are considered to be a dumb Nazi bastard which closes the door to a large part of what one could call polite and somewhat influential society.

Since Austria is small and Vienna, where pretty much anything of significance happens even smaller, you dont want those doors closed.


Thanks for the explanation Orion.

Would it be fair to say that given the geographical limitations, employment limitations and government subsidy limitations.....it would curtail mass immigration of poor unskilled workers?

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orion
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 24399

UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√????√???√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question


Not really.

Of course it comes up in elections but this has all very specific backgrounds.

F.e., we took a lot of people in when Yugoslavia broke up and this was always sold as temporary.

Now of course they speak the language, have a job and their village, town, whatever have been so thoroughly ethnically cleansed that they have nothing to go back too.

So while the official version is that the law is the law and whatnot we do all know of course that this is bullshit when every soccer player or opera singer can get citizenship in what feels like 5 minutes.

I also remember that a family with 2 small children was due to be thrown out of the country, at 4 in the morning so as to avoid any media attention..... the whole village was standing in front of their house, the police could not get through.

So in short, economic problems no and while a large part of the population probably feels some uneasiness when it comes to people with different religions and color of skin, their feelings can drastically change when it concerns a co worker or friends.

You should also keep in mind that a lot of the things that would fly in almost every other nation do not work here because one could say we have a very particular history regarding religious and ethnic tolerance.

Meaning, in a country where most people are just barely German and helped kill a few million people you either thread lightly or you are considered to be a dumb Nazi bastard which closes the door to a large part of what one could call polite and somewhat influential society.

Since Austria is small and Vienna, where pretty much anything of significance happens even smaller, you dont want those doors closed.


Thanks for the explanation Orion.

Would it be fair to say that given the geographical limitations, employment limitations and government subsidy limitations.....it would curtail mass immigration of poor unskilled workers?


We dont really need that, given that we have an immigration policy that would make Genghis Khan cackle with glee.

Those that still come live in conditions that are appalling and this is very likely by design. Of course, bureaucratic ineptness and ill will are very hard to distinguish between.

The thing is though, this cannot go on. Austrians do not get enough children some immigrants do. On the other hand, we are probably not quite ready yet to ship barely literate people in just so they can bolster our numbers. Not only that, what would most definitely not fly is immigration of a lot of people who definitely do not share our culture which Serbs as well as Croats more or less did.

Something will have to give and I am very interested to find out whether we will give up our culture or whether we will cut back the cradle to grave welfare state.

One last thing, if EU citizens decided to come, there is of course nothing we could do, Greeks for example need little more than a drivers license to settle here.

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UtahLama
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Utah, USA
Posts: 6566

orion wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√?????√????√???√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question


Not really.

Of course it comes up in elections but this has all very specific backgrounds.

F.e., we took a lot of people in when Yugoslavia broke up and this was always sold as temporary.

Now of course they speak the language, have a job and their village, town, whatever have been so thoroughly ethnically cleansed that they have nothing to go back too.

So while the official version is that the law is the law and whatnot we do all know of course that this is bullshit when every soccer player or opera singer can get citizenship in what feels like 5 minutes.

I also remember that a family with 2 small children was due to be thrown out of the country, at 4 in the morning so as to avoid any media attention..... the whole village was standing in front of their house, the police could not get through.

So in short, economic problems no and while a large part of the population probably feels some uneasiness when it comes to people with different religions and color of skin, their feelings can drastically change when it concerns a co worker or friends.

You should also keep in mind that a lot of the things that would fly in almost every other nation do not work here because one could say we have a very particular history regarding religious and ethnic tolerance.

Meaning, in a country where most people are just barely German and helped kill a few million people you either thread lightly or you are considered to be a dumb Nazi bastard which closes the door to a large part of what one could call polite and somewhat influential society.

Since Austria is small and Vienna, where pretty much anything of significance happens even smaller, you dont want those doors closed.


Thanks for the explanation Orion.

Would it be fair to say that given the geographical limitations, employment limitations and government subsidy limitations.....it would curtail mass immigration of poor unskilled workers?


We dont really need that, given that we have an immigration policy that would make Genghis Khan cackle with glee.

Those that still come live in conditions that are appalling and this is very likely by design. Of course, bureaucratic ineptness and ill will are very hard to distinguish between.

The thing is though, this cannot go on. Austrians do not get enough children some immigrants do. On the other hand, we are probably not quite ready yet to ship barely literate people in just so they can bolster our numbers. Not only that, what would most definitely not fly is immigration of a lot of people who definitely do not share our culture which Serbs as well as Croats more or less did.

Something will have to give and I am very interested to find out whether we will give up our culture or whether we will cut back the cradle to grave welfare state.

One last thing, if EU citizens decided to come, there is of course nothing we could do, Greeks for example need little more than a drivers license to settle here.


So it would appear that your immigration situation is similar to ours...except your government enforces the laws you have on the books.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next decade when you have to care for all the new babies that they are gonna pump out.

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orion
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 24399

UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√??????√?????√????√???√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question


Not really.

Of course it comes up in elections but this has all very specific backgrounds.

F.e., we took a lot of people in when Yugoslavia broke up and this was always sold as temporary.

Now of course they speak the language, have a job and their village, town, whatever have been so thoroughly ethnically cleansed that they have nothing to go back too.

So while the official version is that the law is the law and whatnot we do all know of course that this is bullshit when every soccer player or opera singer can get citizenship in what feels like 5 minutes.

I also remember that a family with 2 small children was due to be thrown out of the country, at 4 in the morning so as to avoid any media attention..... the whole village was standing in front of their house, the police could not get through.

So in short, economic problems no and while a large part of the population probably feels some uneasiness when it comes to people with different religions and color of skin, their feelings can drastically change when it concerns a co worker or friends.

You should also keep in mind that a lot of the things that would fly in almost every other nation do not work here because one could say we have a very particular history regarding religious and ethnic tolerance.

Meaning, in a country where most people are just barely German and helped kill a few million people you either thread lightly or you are considered to be a dumb Nazi bastard which closes the door to a large part of what one could call polite and somewhat influential society.

Since Austria is small and Vienna, where pretty much anything of significance happens even smaller, you dont want those doors closed.


Thanks for the explanation Orion.

Would it be fair to say that given the geographical limitations, employment limitations and government subsidy limitations.....it would curtail mass immigration of poor unskilled workers?


We dont really need that, given that we have an immigration policy that would make Genghis Khan cackle with glee.

Those that still come live in conditions that are appalling and this is very likely by design. Of course, bureaucratic ineptness and ill will are very hard to distinguish between.

The thing is though, this cannot go on. Austrians do not get enough children some immigrants do. On the other hand, we are probably not quite ready yet to ship barely literate people in just so they can bolster our numbers. Not only that, what would most definitely not fly is immigration of a lot of people who definitely do not share our culture which Serbs as well as Croats more or less did.

Something will have to give and I am very interested to find out whether we will give up our culture or whether we will cut back the cradle to grave welfare state.

One last thing, if EU citizens decided to come, there is of course nothing we could do, Greeks for example need little more than a drivers license to settle here.


So it would appear that your immigration situation is similar to ours...except your government enforces the laws you have on the books.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next decade when you have to care for all the new babies that they are gonna pump out.


That our governments enforces our laws is not quite true.

They are a bunch of wet towels, they do not really dare to crack down so they dont let anyone in so that they do not have to.

Also, we are not exactly California, to disappear in Austria is next to impossible unless you have well established connections.

Plus, at this rate we will probably have assimilated them in a few years.

Does not change the long term problem though.

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ZEB
Level

Join date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 19363

MaximusB wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/...=googlenews_wsj


"California's rising standards of living and outstanding public schools and universities once attracted millions seeking upward economic mobility. But then something went radically wrong as California legislatures and governors built a welfare state on high tax rates, liberal entitlement benefits, and excessive regulation. The results, though predictable, are nonetheless striking. From the mid-1980s to 2005, California's population grew by 10 million, while Medicaid recipients soared by seven million; tax filers paying income taxes rose by just 150,000; and the prison population swelled by 115,000."


Only 1% of those 10 million pay taxes.

Brought to you by the Democratic Mafia....ooops I meant Party.



As I've said on other threads I cannot think of even one state that is financially well off where the democrats (or liberal from any party) have been in charge for decades. California is a perfect example. New York is another good one. both have billions in debt and are in financial shambles.

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Bambi
Level

Join date: Sep 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1427

UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question




In Britain much of the immigration has been in the south-east/London area - there are HUGE strains on public services, transportation, water supplies, health - which isn't helped by the govnerments focus on london to the detriment of all other natures

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UtahLama
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Utah, USA
Posts: 6566

Bambi wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question




In Britain much of the immigration has been in the south-east/London area - there are HUGE strains on public services, transportation, water supplies, health - which isn't helped by the govnerments focus on london to the detriment of all other natures


This will be the downfall of the Western nations in the long run, it is unsustainable.

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orion
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 24399

UtahLama wrote:
Bambi wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√???√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question




In Britain much of the immigration has been in the south-east/London area - there are HUGE strains on public services, transportation, water supplies, health - which isn't helped by the govnerments focus on london to the detriment of all other natures


This will be the downfall of the Western nations in the long run, it is unsustainable.


Maybe, but it is not "them" that created the problem, it was us.

That they expose the unsustainability of the situation is hardly their fault.

If we had not chosen to become a a cradle to grave cuddle-ocracy maybe we would have an economy that would lift their boat along with ours and we would have more than a whopping 1.4 children per woman.

1.4. Holy shit, did not know how fucked we already were.

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UtahLama
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Utah, USA
Posts: 6566

orion wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Bambi wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
orion wrote:
The interesting thing to me is that while it is w√????√???√??√?¬≠dely acknowledged that there can be no immigration with a super welfare state, it seem that California forgot that other Americans could also move there, which they have.

So either they turn all of the US into one giant California, or this ship is sinking.




They will breed us out in 1-2 generations....there is no doubt.

And yes, I blame the entitlement programs that prevail in western countries for doing it....if I was coming from some 3rd world shit hole I would do the exact same thing. We are bending over backwards to bankrupt our society.


Do you have this problem with Muslim immigrants from Northern Africa like other countries (France) straining your public services?

/serious question




In Britain much of the immigration has been in the south-east/London area - there are HUGE strains on public services, transportation, water supplies, health - which isn't helped by the govnerments focus on london to the detriment of all other natures


This will be the downfall of the Western nations in the long run, it is unsustainable.


Maybe, but it is not "them" that created the problem, it was us.

That they expose the unsustainability of the situation is hardly their fault.

If we had not chosen to become a a cradle to grave cuddle-ocracy maybe we would have an economy that would lift their boat along with ours and we would have more than a whopping 1.4 children per woman.

1.4. Holy shit, did not know how fucked we already were.

  Report
 

StevenF
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 4269

ZEB wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/...=googlenews_wsj


"California's rising standards of living and outstanding public schools and universities once attracted millions seeking upward economic mobility. But then something went radically wrong as California legislatures and governors built a welfare state on high tax rates, liberal entitlement benefits, and excessive regulation. The results, though predictable, are nonetheless striking. From the mid-1980s to 2005, California's population grew by 10 million, while Medicaid recipients soared by seven million; tax filers paying income taxes rose by just 150,000; and the prison population swelled by 115,000."


Only 1% of those 10 million pay taxes.

Brought to you by the Democratic Mafia....ooops I meant Party.



As I've said on other threads I cannot think of even one state that is financially well off where the democrats (or liberal from any party) have been in charge for decades. California is a perfect example. New York is another good one. both have billions in debt and are in financial shambles.


don't those two places also have relatively high taxes as well?

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