Ever since women bodybuilders began actually looking like bodybuilders back in the 1980s the federations have been searching for a way to turn muscle competitions for women into something more resembling conventional beauty contests. Bill Dobbins


O.K., I've read the article dealing with the figure competitor and waded through the two threads which eventually degenerated into pissing contests. I thought I would start a new thread where we could discuss the subject of women's physique competitions without getting bogged down in personalities and personal attacks. So let's play nice, shall we?

Allow me to preface this by saying that I don't compete. I've never wanted to. What follows here is my opinion based on my observations. I may honk a few folks off here, but remember this is just my opinion. Your observations and conclusions may differ.

As most of you know, I've been around a long time and have watched women's physique contests evolve from the early eighties to what they are now. I always had an issue with women's bodybuilding competitions, due mainly to the subjective nature of the judging and the sexism that is so pervasive throughout the competitive bodybuilding world.

When fitness competitions came along, I tried to remain open minded and thought it was good that they added a performance component to the judging. Some of the competitors exhibited very impressive skills although there was a "cuteness" factor to it all that kinda bothered me. It seemed to be tailored to the gymnasts and cheerleader wanna-bes. Too much focused on the costume or appearance.

Then when figure competitions came along, I was aghast. I saw them as nothing more than a way to get slim, un-intimidating females on stage in bikinis and high heels in an effort to put more butts in the seats. A glorified bikini contest, offering nothing more than T&A. The figure class opened up competition to a whole new group of females who, for whatever reason, cannot compete as bodybuilders or fitness competitors. To me, this was like lowering the basket, so that more short guys could have a shot at the NBA.

Now that these competitions have been around for awhile, I have had a chance to learn a little more about them, to see what these women look like, how they train and what kind of physique wins. The question that keeps pestering me, is whose idea of a female figure are they using? Just as the professional female BB's have reached an extreme, figure competitions reward those who go to an unnatural extreme.

I looked up the judging criteria for an NPC figure competition, and this is what was stated:


NPC WOMEN'S FIGURE COMPETITION GUIDELINES

When judging a figure competition the judges shall assess the athleticism of the physique. This is not a bodybuilding contest. A SMALL DEGREE OF MUSCULARITY WITH SEPARATION IS DESIRED, WITH NO VISIBLE STRIATIONS. The muscle tone should appear firm and round with a small amount of body fat over the muscle, and no excessive leanness. The figure competitions provide alternatives for athletic women who (a) Train. (b) Do not wish to gain muscle size and vascularity and (c) do not have a strong gymnastic / dance background. .

It sounds kinda like a good place for an athletic female to exhibit her physique, doesn't it. Aside from some of the pros, these women do not look athletic to me. They just look scrawny and it makes me wince. Apparently, the part about excessive leanness is not being enforced, and what we wind up seeing are these emaciated women on stage with little or no appreciable muscularity. Sure, you could take any average twenty-something female and diet her down to single digit percentage body fat and she's gonna show some muscularity; that's how our bones move. Now every female that has been training for six months thinks she can diet her way to a trophy. And that's what these competitions have turned out to be - dieting contests.

Answer me this - if these contests are for women who do not want to gain muscle size and vascularity, why then do they all diet down to a point where you can see their ribs? In a bodybuilding contest it is done so that the judges can see the muscle development. In a figure contest, there is no muscle development, so what is the point? I just don't get it.

Now the gyms are filled with these stick women who do endless hours of cardio, hundreds of reps and treat carbohydrates like they are poison. I'm sorry, but if you have 11 inch arms and 18 inch thighs, you do not need to go on a diet. Good god, women have enough body image issues without these competitions encouraging the "Heroin Chic" look.

This is not a slam against the women who compete in these contests. I understand that some women are driven to be competitive and do what they must to win. That is their choice. This is a slam against an industry that cannot hold a female physique competiton without making it into a beauty/dieting contest. If it were a true physique contest, there would be no designer suits and no 5" heels. But you have to remember the industries motivation: money. It's all about selling tickets, entrance fees and product sales.

Just for a minute, imagine if there was a male version of this type of competition. All the 135 pounders with abs would be dieting down to "get ripped" so that they could step on stage and win the Abercrombie Open. How would you guys react to that?

I agree with all of these comments. I have tremendous respect for the women who enter these contests. Also, unlike you, it's a bodytype I like when it has a reasonably normal amount of bodyfat on it. But I don't like the contest itself. And I don't like the extremely low standard of bodyfat that has been set. But then I also think of it this way; if it wasn't 'hard' with a rigourous standard wins wouldn't mean so much. The same goes with bodybuiling. There are beatuifully muscled athletes and women who shoot for a certain level of muscularity, but they don't have the leaness. Often by choice, but bodybuilding would be too easy if it set the standard at a higher bodyfat. Same for figure, I think.

There are plenty of gorgeous girls on the street who lift but don't want to get much more muscular. They have tiny waists, hard curves, lean, sculpted arms. But they have some degree of softness to them. They are not figure-lean. And probably don't want to be. But a higher level of bodyfat standard, and that physique would be readily achievable. Some would have it without even making it a goal.

I have been amazed for some time at what is considered a "sexy female body" in our country.

If a girl doesn't have some curve in her leg, her hips, her breasts.. I just don't see her as a sex object.

Women with 18 inch thighs and ribs poking out look more like 10 year old girls to me than like biologically mature women.

There was a time when I actually had a thing for the "skinny girls" like so many guys do..

I don't know what changed in me, but one day I woke up and liked curvy women.

Not FAT women. Just curvy.

(shrug) I'm glad it happened. Fat bottomed girls make the world go round.

Great thread Gojira!

I think the figure category has it's place - being a female who is in great shape but doesn't want to get hyooge and doesn't have a dance background. In an ideal world, a figure category is basically the evolution of female bodybuilding - the acknowledgement that women can be fit and muscular without looking like men, in a way that is appropriate to their natural bodies.

The judging criteria state that there should be a small amount of muscle and separation, and some body fat. But when you compare that to how bodybuilders look, 'small' and 'some body fat' take on different meanings I guess. That's the issue with subjectively judged events, these adjectives are so open to interpretation.

Figure girls these days, at least at the top levels, are pretty big and very muscular compared to the average woman. They have big delts, lats, quads. They are very lean but far from stick figures. They're also far from natural, although they haven't taken their AAS use to the extreme of the classic female bodybuilder.

I think it's mainly at the lower levels and the natural competitions where the stick-thin look prevails.

It seems to me that the competitors and judging criteria vary quite widely, depending on the level of competition and the organization running the show.

I am sure you ladies will know - what kind of prize money is attached to winning a big figure event - either at the state or national level?

How many competitions could one woman theoretically - normally - compete in over the period of a year?

I'd be interested in a discussion of pre-contest training and diet methods for the chemically enhanced vs. those that remain free of pharmaceuticals.

i have an enormous respect for women who compete in any type of bodybuilding contest- bb, figure, or fitness. it takes a ton a determination, crazy hard work, and the will of an ass to do it. it's something i don't think i ever could. however, i was reading in Anthony Roberts' article that the woman he was training lost her period- that scares me. the day i lose my ability to procreate (before menopause) would send me for a loop. i have to think that doing something that extreme CANNOT be healthy for your body.

i love this site mainly for it's lifestyle- i have never been in such good shape since i started reading everything i could. and when he went on to say she blacked out- well, i just don't want to put myself through that kind of pain. but anyone who can go through that pain and break down personal barriers have my permanent awe

Just to show you how screwed up the judging is for female physique contests, in 2005 the NPC and IFBB introduced the so-called '20% percent rule', requesting "that female athletes in Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure decrease the amount of muscularity by a factor of 20%". The rule was stated to "apply to those female athletes whose physiques require the decrease". So, who the hell makes that determination? And, can you imagine them asking the men to do this?

It is for reasons such as these that these contests hold no credibility with me. I feel sorry for the women who have the desire to compete and show off their hard work, yet have to deal with bullshit double standards such as this.

How about this - can you imagine the USAPL going to its female lifters and asking them to reduce their strength levels by 20% in order to maintain an image of "femininity"? I can see it now, Jennifer Thompson gets red-lighted for benching over twice her bodyweight because it's not lady-like.

It would never happen.

FYI. Jennifer Thompson; no third arm, lol.

I think the IFBB tried to address the GH gut issue, but the standings don't reflect it.

First, to Gojira, thank you for introducing a sane discussion. The involvement here has been good.

I have a friend who is a personal trainer at the gym I workout in (I also train folks there also). She helped me with some ideas as I was getting ready for my first competition.

She is 5' 10", and normally weighs around 150 pounds. For her contest in South Carolina (NPC) that she did last May, she hooked up with a NPC judge in Denver who also trains competitors on the side or maybe he judges on the side......

As she is, she is very thin. This judge had her diet even more to get down to 135.....she looked anorexic and I said as much. She had very little muscle development and a little vascularity....totally absurd. She took 6 or 5th, don't remember.

But the real point is, just what are the standards? What is it that NPC is trying to say? I doubt they really know. Is it women who look healthy? Then for white women it would be at least someone who was fish belly white because we know that tanning leads to melanoma (sp...dictionary does not have an entry for it).....

Obviously for both men and women for most BB and Physique contests the standards must include what ever physique maximizes ticket sales and other marketing goals. In fact, I rather suspect that is probably 75% of the standards chosen.

I am not running down the participants: hell I competed and plan to again next April and July. It takes tremendous dedication and motivation to subject yourself to the rigors of pre-contest dieting and workouts....try working out at 5% bf.

But that is just my thoughts: it really does center around marketing, mass marketing, supplement sales and maximizing sales.