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T Replacement
 
Hos and TRT
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kickhos
Level 100

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 49

Intro:
Age: 33
Height: 6ft
Weight: currently 177 (in cut phase, then once lean, begin lean gain phase)

How I discovered my low T:
10wks ago I hired a trainer/nutritionist (nation level BB) after 7 yrs of making no progress on my own. He asked for some blood work. Went to my PCP and asked for T, and Thyriod in addition to the normal blood work she wanted. She declined to allow for testing the Testosterone, as 'this will tell you nothing, there's no need to check that'! I said put it on the list now, I WANT IT CHECKED!

What do you know.....T was 158!!!! After getting the blood work back, all she was concerned about was that my liver enzyme numbers were a % or two out of range...I told her no shit they are, I bust my ass in the gym everyday and am currently on a low carb diet to lean up. Those numbers dont mean didly. She also said my blood pressure was a bit high and wanted me to keep track of it...I was so flaming pissed at her theres little question why my blood pressure was high!

So, off to the Uro. More blood work, LH and FSH are good...Primary Hypogonadism. Prescribes 100mg Test E/wk. I say what about HCG and and AI. He says 'I never use either, your young you won't need them'. So two days after my first injection I demanded blood work to test my E2, TT, and FT, SHBG, Vitamin D (yes I realize I was a little late with these tests, but I'm being my own doctor here so I'm trying to do the best I can with as fast as I can research this stuff).

Waiting on E2 test results; currently have word in to Uro that either he script me HCG or refer me to a endo and I'll hopefully force him to give it to me. A)my wife maybe want's another kid, b)I don't want balls that look and feel like raisens!

All my other blood work was spot on, cholesterol, thyroid, creatinine, you name it...actually, compared to the blood work I had done about a month before hiring the trainer they have even gotten better.

I'll update as time goes on, and be back soon with E2 results and my adventures with getting HCG and an AI.

By the way, thanks to all here for all the great information...I know the uro was shocked when I walked in and knew all that I did, and more than he does. Note: my uro's nurse is my brother in laws wife...she says they have never prescribed either HCG or an AI for any of the numerous cases of TRT that they do. UNFREAKINGBELIEVEABLE!

Hos

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VTBalla34
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2009
Location: District of Columbia, USA
Posts: 7534

Good that you are being your own advocate. You've obviously taken the advice here to heart and as a result haven't had to dick around for months (or years) trying to get treated...being proactive is always the best answer.

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kickhos
Level 100

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 49

question regarding injections (qty/timing)...
as I stated I'm currently doing 2x/wk (every 3.5 days), 0.25ml (200mg/ml) Test E....(still in the process of trying to get AI and HCG, bare with me on that)

For those who do EOD as suggested, how exactly are you spacing that? M-W-F-SUN-T-THU-SAT, repeat? and use dose of what? 0.14ml/injection?

Or, EOD= M-W-F, M-W-F, repeat? Dose? 0.17ml/injection?

Maybe this is getting to anal...maybe I'm an engineer and think too much.

hos

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KSman
Level

Join date: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 7444

EOD is EOD, the cycle repeats every two weeks.

You can do lab work at LEF.org, now on annual sale.

Explain to doc that TRT shuts down LH/FSH and the result is loss of fertility. The testes will atrophy and and there will be a result can only be called organ failure. There also is a loss of pregnenolone levels that undermine all of the steroid hormones, including DHEA and the cortisol group. Pregnenolone is also important for the brain, were is is used directly or converted to neural steroids.

Organ failure is harm, doc is really obligate to avoid this.

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kickhos
Level 100

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 49

Remember my comment in my first post about the Uro saying there was no need for a AI...got my blood work back (well the E2 number anyways) and it was 92!!! Ninety-fricken-two! WHAT? No wonder I'm a moody bitch all the time, I'm constantly having my period. I've called the Uro's office 3 times now in the last 24hrs to get set up to see an endo and nothing yet. This has to end soon. This is why after three injections of T I still feel like a bag of turds.

I'll keep you all posted.

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kickhos
Level 100

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 49

Got the rest of my blood work now, here we go (note:this blood work was taken 3 days after my first 1/2 dose of Test E, but before my 2nd dose):
Total T: 600.0ng/dL range:348-1197 (initial was 158)
Free T: 13.9pg/mL range:8.7-25.1 (good? bad?)
Growth Hormone: 1.8ng/mL range:0.0-2.9
E2: 90.6pg/mL range:10.0-37.0
Progesterone: 0.3ng/mL range:0.3-1.2
Vitamin D: 31.0ng/mL range:30.0-100.0
DHEA-S: 123.8ug/dL range:160.0-449.0
Cortisol: 23.4ug/dL range:2.3-19.4
SHBG: 25.7nmol/L range:16.5-55.9

That's it for now.

Comments?

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grox
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

Your DHEA-S is below range. You E2 is way above range. I would be concerned by the cortisol level if you weren't sick or traumatized at the time of the test and/or it wasn't first thing in the morning.

600 as a low seems reasonable if you are feeling good and lowering E2 might help with that number also.

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VTBalla34
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2009
Location: District of Columbia, USA
Posts: 7534

Dont worry about your T levels--it was only one shot and as the T builds up in your system, this will increase.

I don't see a reason to inject any more frequently than twice a week. Three times a week is ok too I suppose, but 2x/week is plenty considering the 1 week half life of Test E/C.

You need to start supplementing Vitamin D! Get a good bioavailable brand (I use Biotics Emulsified drops that I buy on Amazon--not an advertisement!!) and take 15,000 iu/day for a couple weeks and knock back down to 6k iu/day or so for maintenance.

E2 is obviouusly high and you know this. Get an AI!

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go2failure
Level

Join date: Feb 2008
Location:
Posts: 54

My first thought was "Poor Ho's!", but I got my vitamin D up by taking 10-15k ius a day and going to tanning bed 2-3x week for no more than 10 mins at most on a regular bed. worked quick!

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kickhos
Level 100

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 49

So I've made an apt with the endo, but not till April 30th...two more weeks of hell.

In the interest of time and my sanity (and my wifes interests in me), what information/research can I dig up and/or print off to take with to the endo such that when I leave that day I'm almost guaranteed to be leaving with an AI and HCG Rx's?! Note, my wife and I are still interested in kids (HCG), and I DO NOT want shrunken balls (HCG), I have zero libido despite the increase in my T from the few injections I've done (can't remember the last time I had a random boner, or morning wood)...I would hope my E2 score of 92 would be proof enough I NEED an AI, but docs have done stupider shit.

Thanks all
HOs

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kickhos
Level 100

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 49

Drama, drama, drama. Got into the endo earlier than expected, saw him this afternoon.

Based on labs I've shown here, same ones viewed by Uro, the endo suspects 'secondary hypogonadism'...you'll remember, the Uro said it was primary. What? Does anyone know what is going on? Endo wonders if maybe the 'strenuous' workouts I do 6-7 days a week are causing the low T rather than something else and asked me to back off the weights. I told him to shove it, lifting ain't going to change! He also doesn't believe the high E2 number because I don't show any signs of a male with high estrogen (I have a beard, chest hair, and pecks not tits he says), and even if he did there is no way he would script an AI because they are not FDA approved for that and not proven to work. No go on HCG either, said if you want to have kids then you should not do T injections.

Furthermore, he highly recommeded that I stick with the once a week injection protocol and not the bi-weekly or now EOD regimen I'm doing as recommended here. Also told him I was using the 1/2" insulin syringes (recommended here), either in the thigh or SC in upper thigh (you guessed it, recommended here). He said there is no way to tell how much T you are getting doing it that way, only way to do it is IM with 1" or more needle.

He's running another set of labs to double check E2, TT, and also wants to check something else (thought he said HCG, but not confident). We'll see what those tests say...then what? Go for AI, HCG on my own somehow? How the hell does one do that? I'm at a loss boys. And on top of it, I still feel like shit 85% of the time.

uuuuuuuguggggggggg!

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go2failure
Level

Join date: Feb 2008
Location:
Posts: 54

kickhos wrote:
Drama, drama, drama. Got into the endo earlier than expected, saw him this afternoon.

Based on labs I've shown here, same ones viewed by Uro, the endo suspects 'secondary hypogonadism'...you'll remember, the Uro said it was primary. What? Does anyone know what is going on? Endo wonders if maybe the 'strenuous' workouts I do 6-7 days a week are causing the low T rather than something else and asked me to back off the weights. I told him to shove it, lifting ain't going to change! He also doesn't believe the high E2 number because I don't show any signs of a male with high estrogen (I have a beard, chest hair, and pecks not tits he says), and even if he did there is no way he would script an AI because they are not FDA approved for that and not proven to work. No go on HCG either, said if you want to have kids then you should not do T injections.

Furthermore, he highly recommeded that I stick with the once a week injection protocol and not the bi-weekly or now EOD regimen I'm doing as recommended here. Also told him I was using the 1/2" insulin syringes (recommended here), either in the thigh or SC in upper thigh (you guessed it, recommended here). He said there is no way to tell how much T you are getting doing it that way, only way to do it is IM with 1" or more needle.

He's running another set of labs to double check E2, TT, and also wants to check something else (thought he said HCG, but not confident). We'll see what those tests say...then what? Go for AI, HCG on my own somehow? How the hell does one do that? I'm at a loss boys. And on top of it, I still feel like shit 85% of the time.

uuuuuuuguggggggggg!


Interesting despite the normal LH/etc. Well if they can rule out things one way or another that can be helpful. I'm in the same boat. I have plenty of knowledge on the E2, HCG dosing, but I cant do it myself as the damn docs arent cooperating. I'm thinking it will help a lot once I get on the AI, but testicular atrophy is another concern.

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VTBalla34
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2009
Location: District of Columbia, USA
Posts: 7534

Why would you keep going to this doctor? You have demonstrated high E2 based on labwork...doctors script things all the time for off label use...he is stuck in the stone age and it doesnt seem like you are going to budge him. Kick his dumbass to the curb!

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kickhos
Level 100

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 49

should have noted above, the LH, FSH and Prolactic numbers from the lab work done PRIOR to starting TRT were:
LH 2.25miU/ml range (1.24-8.62)
FSH 3.5miU/ml range (1.27-19.26)
Prolactin 5.5ng/mg range (2.6-13.1)

What are your guys thoughts? Primary? Secondary?

Should I suggest they do an MRI, just for the hell of it?
hos

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