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T Replacement
 
Harvard Study: More Test is Better, Healthier
 

Mick28
Level

Join date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3392

Is this the right place to post your blood test numbers, test, DHEA, Etc?

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

This is the right forum. Please create your own post and do not restart something that you just happened to find. Please first read the "protocol for injections" sticky. Its a long read because it gets hijacked too much.

Post numbers, units and ranges.

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Vires Eternus
Level 4

Join date: May 2008
Posts: 473

Wow, after reading all the way through this, I feel like I should at the very least get some base line tests. Can anyone here recommend any threads that I can read to know what these blood tests are called and how to request them? (Is it just a standard blood test but you ask for blood T levels with the results?)

I'd rather not have the kind of experience HeadHunter was describing, getting sent from one kind of specialist to another etc. so I'm guessing I should know what I want, where to get it, what to ask for, and who to ask, so I don't show up just to get deflected off to something else. Thanks in advance.

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

Something like this:
http://www.lef.org/...Blood-Test.html

* Chemistry Panel (Metabolic panel with lipids)
* Complete Blood Count (CBC)
* Free Testosterone
* Total Testosterone
* DHEA - Sulfate
* Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA)
* Estradiol
* Homocysteine
* C-reactive protein (High sensitivity)
* TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone)

TSH is a new addition to the above panel.

Note current sale price for members.

For some, paying out of pocket for tests at LEF is cheaper than from their doc. Depends on insurance. If doc will not play, do the above on your own then you know what your levels are and can pursue options from there.

We can help you interpret the results.

Always get and retain lab results from your doctors! You need to have your own medical history.

More info in the 'protocol for injections' sticky.

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dirtbag
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Join date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3559





Not sure if this is a repeat posting of these videos. If that is the case sorry. If not and you have not seen these videos its a good lecture on Low Test. Good review or learning either way.

Cross post requested by KSman

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

I have transplanted this from another forum, it belongs here too. Note that the lowest T levels [in natural men] correlate with lower DHEA and pregnenolone.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Blacksnake wrote:
(Meanwhile, in the UK's credible scientific section)...
'Fountain of youth' steroids may protect against heart disease
Steroids sold as health supplements can switch on a natural defence mechanism against heart disease, according to University of Leeds researchers.
The University of Leeds biologists have identified a previously-unknown ion channel in human blood vessels that can limit the production of inflammatory cytokines; proteins that drive the early stages of heart disease.

After analyses, boffins found that this protective effect can be triggered by pregnenolone sulphate - a molecule that is part of a family of "fountain-of-youth" steroids. These steroids are so-called because of their apparent ability to improve energy, vision and memory
Collaborative studies with surgeons at Leeds General infirmary have shown that this defence mechanism can be switched on in diseased blood vessels as well as in healthy vessels.
So-called "fountain of youth" steroids are made naturally in the body, but levels decline rapidly with age.
This has led to a market in synthetically made steroids that are promoted for their health benefits, such as pregnenolone and DHEA. Pregnenolone sulphate is in the same family of steroids but it is not sold as a health supplement.
"The effect that we have seen is really quite exciting and also unexpected," said Professor David Beech, who led the study. "However, we are absolutely not endorsing any claims made by manufacturers of any health supplements. Evidence from human trials is needed first."
A chemical profiling study indicated that the protective effect was not as strong when cholesterol was present too. This suggests that the expected benefits of "fountain of youth" steroids will be much greater if they are used in combination with cholesterol-lowering drugs and/or other healthy lifestyle strategies such as diet and exercise.
"These "fountain of youth" steroids are relatively cheap to make and some of them are already available as commercial products. So if we can show that this effect works in people as well as in lab-based studies, then it could be a cost-effective approach to addressing cardiovascular health problems that are becoming epidemic in our society and world-wide," Professor Beech added.


That is a nice bit of fluff. Hard to see where the above text came from when reading:
http://circres.ahajournals.org/...full/106/9/1507
That is about as obvious as a Dan Brown treasure map.

I often cite the need for hCG in TRT/HRT to maintain pregnenolone levels. TRT induced testicular shutdown takes the largest single source in males] of pregnenolone off-line. This can have direct consequences for the brain. Low pregnenolone levels also will drag down DHEA and the other adrenal steroids. For most TRT without hCG constitutes failure of the testes. This is therapy induced organ failure.

With the implications of the above research, the effects of testicular shutdown have much wider implications. Many HRT docs do check pregnenolone levels and seek to have levels restored to youthful levels. They have good reasons for doing this. The research explains the mechanics of one possible beneficial result of maintaining youthful hormone profiles.

It is well known from clinical studies that men with the lowest DHEA-S levels, who have heart attacks, have the lowest 1 year survivability rates. It seems obvious that men with the highest natural DHEA-S levels would also have the highest pregnenolone levels. So the drive to supplement with DHEA-S to place one self in the survivors group could be of limited effect, as higher natural DHEA-S levels may be the effect of higher pregnenolone and higher DHEA-S serum levels may not be the primary cause of increased survivability.

Also, men with the lowest natural pregnenolone and DHEA levels will as a group have the lowest testosterone levels. Low testosterone is known to have a wide spectrum of negative effects. Thus low pregnenolone can have other secondary effects in natural aging males.

The study explores the possible implications of increasing pregnenolone. But what are the implications and mechanics of very low pregnenolone levels? I do not know if the paper really presents any evidence in that direction.

I disagree with the suggestion that cholesterol lowering drugs would be of unqualified benefit, as statin drugs can easily reduce CoQ10 levels, lowering mitochondrial activity which can simply replace heart attack events with death by congestive heart failure. CoQ10 supplements are needed with statin drugs. I need to tell a story: An older friend had a ongoing nagging cough. I asked if he was taking Lipitor. He responded, surprised that I asked, that he was on 40mg, [a large dose]. I gave him a bottle of 100mg ubiquinol CoQ10. His cough is gone and he has lost 17 pounds, a long term sore elbow is also "healed". As he burns off his own fat, he eats less. 17 pound of fat is a lot of calories. He continues to loose fat. I notice that his blue jeans all look new too. [Constant coughing is a major symptom of congestive heart failure. A weakness in the heart causes back pressure in the lungs forcing fluids to accumulate in the lungs.]

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GeoBob
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Join date: Jun 2009
Posts: 118

In the list of blood tests, why not Bio Available Testosterone. I just gave a blood sample for total T, Free T and Bio T and E2. Looks like I should have asked for a few more tests.

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

Bio-T is good. Not many use it. FT tells mostly the same story at bio-T. Always quote ranges when discussing results.

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jhoward1102
Level 2

Join date: Apr 2010
Posts: 48

If more test is better, how much more? (assuming E2 is kept in check) I understand high normal is around 800 to 1000 for guys 45+. How high was your last blood test? Curious how high one would want to stay at consistently for extended periods. I've read here some guys are over 1400, while some around 800-1000 on gel etc.

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

The point is that more is better than the levels they have wasting away otherwise. It makes sense to not go beyond what makes you feel great, you may need to use more as you age. You can't deal some cards twice.

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CopterNadle
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Join date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3

nice vid. worth watching for.

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

Just read something interesting from lef.org

Concerning anemia and high hematocrit issues:

"""Red blood cells are manufactured in the bone marrow. This process relies on various nutrients, including iron, vitamin B12, and folic acid, as well as smaller amounts of vitamin C, riboflavin, and copper. Also, the production of red blood cells is stimulated by a hormone called erythropoietin. Deficiencies in any of these nutrients or in erythropoietin can result in anemia. Besides iron deficiency anemia caused by bleeding"""

"""Testosterone deficiency can cause anemia because the hormone helps stimulate kidneys and bone marrow to produce erythropoietin and stem cells."""

Low testosterone can lead to anemia and TRT can resolve this. However, for some, TRT leads to excessive red blood cells, increasing hematocrit, which can restrict blood flow, especially when combined with arteries hardened by endothelial dysfunction as well as from low T. Note that low T is a risk factor for endothelial dysfunction.

Why some men have excessive red blood cell production on TRT is not understood. But there is a possibility that this is the result of the body adapting to low T levels over a period of years. That is my speculation and I have not seen this suggested in anything that I have read. The kidneys produce erythropoietin in response to low oxygen levels [altitude adaption]. All men see an increase in hematocrit with TRT. If a low T adaption has occurred to produce more erythropoietin in response to low T, TRT might then lead to excessive red blood cells. How low T would affect those processes in the kidneys is not obvious; but might be related to the following that could affect blood flow and oxygenation of kidney tissues.

lef.org also states:
""" Potential benefits of testosterone replacement in men with low starting levels include:

* Relaxation of vascular tone and partial correction of endothelial dysfunction. This may occur because testosterone increases production of the natural arterial dilator, nitric oxide, and suppresses growth of smooth muscle cells (a constituent of coronary plaques) in arteries.14 """

Vascular tone refers to the ability of muscles in the arteries to relax, which allows pulses of blood flow to expand the arteries with each pulse of blood. When that action is decreased and coupled with scarring of the arteries, blood pressure increases. High blood pressure restricts blood flow.

And if high hematocrit impairs blood flow and oxygenation of the kidneys, the kidneys would be expected to respond with more erythropoietin and the situation would appear to be self worsening.

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jrm850
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Join date: Aug 2010
Posts: 89

The link to the Harvard Study is no longer active. I have tried find a new link without luck.

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bartonmlee
Level 3

Join date: Nov 2003
Posts: 607

to whom is responsible for this thread, needs to update the harvard study link as is does not work!!!!


please creat new link.


thanks!

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

http://www.google.com/...rt+disease+risk

Only the original poster can fix the link.

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Laynestaley1
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Join date: Mar 2011
Posts: 24

THanks KSman, I'm showing my doc this because i have a feeling he is concerned about me being in the upper level due to this myth about prostate cancer.

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KSman
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Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7880

Estrogens are a greater risk for prostate disease than T or DHT. Parts of the prostate have estrogen receptors, with obvious analogies to the uterus and both are in part developed from common cell clusters. Also not that a lack of ejaculation leads to rancid seminal fluid that causes inflammation and free radical damage to it and the prostate. Lack of T renders men estrogen dominate and the low libido and lack of sex leads to inflammation.

Just as progesterone balances/opposes estrogens in women, T opposes estrogens in men.

Estrogen dominance in men also leads to or increases endothelial dysfunction in men, analogous to how low progesterone or replacement of progesterone with progestins increases risks of thrombosis, heart attacks and strokes in women. Note the warnings on oral birth control products.

TRT with E2 management improves health and life expectancy.

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skiracer
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Join date: Aug 2011
Posts: 57

icecold wrote:
bugs wrote:
It is not clear that higher testosterone levels from supplemental testosterone leads to better health in males. It is more likely that males who are genetically predisposed to higher levels of testosterone (aka: Alpha Males) have physiological advantages (protection from disease) over males with lower levels of testosterone.

It is clear (both in primate and in human studies) that males lower on the totem pole have higher levels of stress and higher levels of disease (specifically heart disease).




I believe there is strong evidence that supplemental testosterone is beneficial for the older diabetic male with metabolic syndrome on insulin. This does mean most doctors will start prescribing it for this condition due to fear of potential side affects.

For many others with low testosterone you are right it is not clear. They are at a greater risk of dying. More than one study has shown this. No evidence that I am aware of to prove if supplementing testosterone will help their survival rates but it is worth further study.

Regardless, for the average healthy aging male on this site having doctors routinely and voluntarily prescribing testosterone to keep you at high normal levels is a long way off.



I am a 34 year old type 1 diabetic. Could you point me to some info referencing the benefits of T supplements for "the older diabetic male on insulin"? How much does T supplementing actually effect you? I've been told by guys in my gym that the insulin/T combo will really have a powerful effect. True or more crap?

Thanks

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Mick28
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Join date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3392

I removed my post I hope that I can be forgiven by the select few for being so stupid as to post my question on the wrong thread. I don't know what got into me I just snapped and put it up without knowing. I wish more than anything that I could somehow go back in time and correct all the damage that this stupid act has caused. But, I can't, all i can do is just try to make ammends an go forward never again making such an error on the testosterone threads.

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VTBalla34
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7536

^^^If you read this thread, you would have seen KSMan multiple times telling you not to put your own case thread into the stickeys...open up your own...what is so hard to understand about this simple request? Jesus

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Mick28
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Join date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3392

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
^^^If you read this thread, you would have seen KSMan multiple times telling you not to put your own case thread into the stickeys...open up your own...what is so hard to understand about this simple request? Jesus[/qu

I didn't read every post in this thread. If I had I would have seen it and wouldn't have posted it here.

Thanks for your patience.

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fldell
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Join date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1

i

I have just finished treatment for base of tongue cancer and would like
to return to -replacement because I am feeling so weak and have lost
weight. Three yrs ago my levels were 190. after two yrs of tcreme they
were 700. Then I was diagnosed with cancer. Dont know what they
are at present. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.

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VTBalla34
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7536

fldell wrote:
i

I have just finished treatment for base of tongue cancer and would like
to return to -replacement because I am feeling so weak and have lost
weight. Three yrs ago my levels were 190. after two yrs of tcreme they
were 700. Then I was diagnosed with cancer. Dont know what they
are at present. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.





This is a stickey for general information. Not a chat room. Put your case into your own thread and keep it going there.

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Jaycuts
Level 1

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 184

Damn I didn't know that. Thanks for the info :)

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tokon
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Join date: Nov 2005
Posts: 109

MuscleTrainee, AnabolicExtreme forum:

"Also, IMO, I am dead set against HRT, unless there are demonstrable health problems caused by low test. I have no care about superficial esthetic problems like bodyfat, muscle mass, or limp dick. Middle age is middle age! Get used to it, coz there's lots more worse shit coming down the pike for you!

With HRT, you are basically asking to destroy your own natural test production, the HTPA, permanently. Then, some years from now, when the health problems from the use of exogenous test appear, such as enlarged prostate(and eventually prostate cancer) or liver damage occurs, they will pull you off the exogenous test, and you will have no natty HTPA left to restore any flow of test.

So, while you had some good years, from the HRT, where you pretended like you were a younger guy, now you are facing life, for the rest of your days, with the test levels of a woman. You think things were bad before? Try life being a male on female levels of test.

There are no peer reviewed studies that show HRT does a damn thing to increase or improve your lifespan. In fact, the American Urological Association still does not approve the use of HRT for anything but proven clinical health problems.

Feel depressed, go see a therapist. Have trouble getting a hardon, get some cialis. Have bodyfat, try some cardio and clean up the bad carbs in your diet.

There is no magic cure to middle age. And testosterone is the fuel of prostate cancer. The longer you live, and the longer you maintain your test levels, the more surely you will end up with prostate cancer. Mother nature is not making a mistake when she tapers down your natty test levels, as you age. You may not like what you see in the mirror or in the bedroom, but I guarantee that you won't like the results of prostate cancer.

There have been studies which postulate that estrogen exposure sensitizes the prostate tissue and predisposes it to cancer. But there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind that estrogen is not the fuel of prostate cancer; it is testosterone.

Look at it from this angle:

In cases where the prostate cancer is not found very early, it is fairly standard practice to shrink the prostate prior to radiation therapy. This is usually done via injection of leuprolide, which stops testosterone production. Eliminating testosterone stops prostate cancer cell reproduction. Now, if it was estrogen which was the culprit, it would be the standard practice to apply an anti-estrogen. But they do not. Why? Because estrogen does not fuel prostate cancer reproduction.

Now, look at it from another angle:

In cases where the prostate cancer has become late stage, and it no longer responds to anti-androgen therapy, it is known that high dosages of estrogen will kill such advanced prostate cancers. So, here we see estrogen KILLING prostate cancer, not fuelling it.

So, I say again, the problem is not estrogen in older men; it is testosterone."

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