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T Replacement
 
Estradiol: Why You Should Care
 

VTBalla34
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7536

You definitely need to dose arimidex multiple times per week. Half life is between 48-72 hours, so 3x/week is optimal or 2x/week minimum.

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dashort
Level

Join date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24

VTBalla34 wrote:
You definitely need to dose arimidex multiple times per week. Half life is between 48-72 hours, so 3x/week is optimal or 2x/week minimum.


Thanks, as always for the guidance.

I have another quick question on Arimidex, however:

Is it possible, even if unlikely, that I wouldn't need to use any Arimidex at all? I have been dosing 200mg Test Cyp per week in two doses and have noticed the effects of low E if I take .25mg of Arimidex EOD.

As I have just begun on this track after a failed course of Testim and Axiron, I haven't gotten my blood test results just yet (next month), to find out where my numbers are with E2, etc.

Thoughts?

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VTBalla34
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7536

At 200 mg/week, you almost certainly need an AI...do not post it here (open up your own case thread for specific cases) but you need to have your E2 tested as part of your regular bloodwork.

Myself and a few others I recall have issues with Arimidex and start to get the bad symptoms of low E2 from it, especially sexual dysfunction. The problem is not as pronounced with Aromasin, so that is an option. I have no experience with Letrozole, but that could be an option as well.

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jonboyohboy
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 68

I read somewhere that ADEX can cause a fatty liver. I realize this was more then likely referencing women who were were probably taking higher doses then us.
But I already have a fatty liver.
Has anyone had liver issues on Adex?

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trex2000
Level

Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 7

NEED SOLID RESEARCH STUDIES?

I have been on HRT for over a year, using an Anti-aging clinic. Everthing was going great, just $$$. Now I have good insurance and my PMD suggested that I be followed by a Uro. for my HRT. The Urologist is fine with the my Test and current dosage. However, he wants to take me off
HCG and Anastrozole. His theory is, if your "T" is good then your E2 will not be an issue. "Only JUICERS need an AI". "If you don't want to have more kids or are not planning to stop TRT then you don't need HCG."

I could not eliquently explain all the micro/pathophis to convince him other wise.

I would like some good research that would help validate my case.

Thanks

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KSman
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8019

There is a stick for finding a TRT doc. Uro's are idiots and so is yours.

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killergoalie
Level

Join date: Mar 2012
Posts: 52

Does anyone know where I could find a place to get anastrozole as a "research chemical" in the Vancouver, B.C. Canada area please?

I've tried Google, but all that leads to is articles on clomid, or tamoxifin etc. (They never answer your specific question, such as "Where can I find anastrozole as a research chemical in Vancouver, B.C.?)

I've talked to 3 different Drs....my Family Dr., my Endo, and one at a walk-in clinic about my high Estradiol levels 174 pmol/L from a range of < 156, and they all said, "It's a LITTLE high, but nothing to worry too much about."

I told them I don't want to be wasting the testosterone I'm injecting by having most of it converted to estrogen, and I still feel like crap! Still depressed, still constantly tired, lethargic, weak, moody etc.

They told me to lose weight - I'm obese and a type 2 diabetic, but I'm losing weight, and my blood sugars are under control.

I told them by the time I lose enough weight to lower my Estrogen levels, it would take 6 months to a year at least, and that's too damn long for me to wait! Not to mention that I don't have the energy to work out, to lose the weight!!!

But they still won't prescribe an A.I. Plus even if they do, it would cost $175.00 for 30 1mg Arimidex pills.

So if anyone knows where I could find a research chemical outlet in the Vancouver, B.C. area, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

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KSman
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8019

You cannot loose fat because your E2 is high.

Doctors are the problem!

We do not post sources on the forums. Maybe you will get a PM.

Arimidex went generic in the USA, probably there too. You want anastrozole prices, not Arimidex.

Find Rx places that sell anastrozole using Google, then contact them and ask if they know a doctor nearby who prescribes for mail HRT.

Any your pharmacist as well.

example:
http://www.pharmasavepoco.com/...

or

Email: [email protected]
Phone: USA toll free*: 1-866-539-5330
Local: 1-604-539-5330
Fax: USA toll free*: 1-866-539-5331
Local: 1-604-539-5331
Our Mailing Address Is: NorthWestPharmacy.com
Unit #103 20560 - 56th Avenue
Langley, BC, Canada
V3A 3Y8

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killergoalie
Level

Join date: Mar 2012
Posts: 52

Awesome!

Thanks so much, KSman! I really appreciate this!

I will check those places out!

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ryanjd54
Level

Join date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2

Great post. Your 'in range' ref amongst the medical community about T & E levels are so true. I was recently diagnosed
With low T @ 30yoa. Prob had it my whole life, but doctors were too wrapped up with 'normal' ranges, so Ive been missing out, a lot!

Educational & factual posts like this invigorate me & hopefully others to press their docs to be more proactive.
However, Ive found even the specialists & MDs willing to prescribe therapy are so
Conservative with dose & clueless to unwanted sides, you still need to stay on top of your game and be proactive!

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KNB
Level 1

Join date: Feb 2007
Posts: 681

ryanjd54 wrote:
Great post. Your 'in range' ref amongst the medical community about T & E levels are so true. I was recently diagnosed
With low T @ 30yoa. Prob had it my whole life, but doctors were too wrapped up with 'normal' ranges, so Ive been missing out, a lot!

Educational & factual posts like this invigorate me & hopefully others to press their docs to be more proactive.
However, Ive found even the specialists & MDs willing to prescribe therapy are so
Conservative with dose & clueless to unwanted sides, you still need to stay on top of your game and be proactive!


Please forgive me for not posting regularly as usual.

As we all know, Adex is very strong and sometimes unpredictable drug. Adex is like fertilizer, a little bit is great, but too much will kill your plants. If you get my drift... I am posting today because I have found out something very interesting. My friends' wife has had cystic acne/bacne for years, the ugly and scar leaving kind. She tends to carry fat around her waist/belly, and as an experiment my buddy per her on Adex drops to see if it would help.

NOTE: all she has left is one ovary, everything else is already gone.

He dosed her one drop per day every day for two months so far and the findings are this: After one week, no change, as Adex takes two weeks to saturate the blood stream, and to hit a solid level. At the end of week four, she started to notice she wasn't breaking like she usually did, but her skin was getting better. Week six only one small acne cyst on her back. By week eight, she had only one breakout, and is now rarely breaking out at all.

I am not a doctor, and am not prescribing a dosing protocol, or medicine to be used to treat any similar kinds of medical problems.

Just a thought...
KNB

Oh, I almost forgot: she craves sex more often, at least that's what he's said.

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USA SUB
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Posts: 20

edited. reason: reading through the thread first to see if I can find the answer to my question

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so-tex
Level

Join date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1

Hi, I am 50 years old, and had bloodwork done 6 weeks ago. It turned out my test levels were at 150. My Dr. put me on Testim gel 1%. after 3 weeks on this, I was crawling out of my skin. I went back to my Dr. on week 4 and had bloodwork done again. My test levels were 671. My Dr. told me to rub on the testim every other day, and this should calm my anxiety. I did this for a week, and the same old symptoms came back after day 6. Very tired and no energy, so I decided to apply the testim two days in a row. Today, I am having severe anxiety, so I am going back to the Dr. tomorrow. The 1st time I went back, I wanted him to test my cortisol levels, and he told me that if he was to provide me hydrocortisol, I would only gain weight. I am going back tomorrow, and demand my cortisol levels and estrogen to be checked. Is thre anything else I should be checked for? Any imput would be helpful.

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one65
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16

Need some help guys. Ive been reading the sticky on estrogen(up to page 25) and Im not sure how to adjust doses(I will post this there as well). Most people use drops, and I use tabs. Also I am NOT on any steroids.

Here is the short story. Months ago I had a test level(early morning of 199, and estrogen level of 113. My urologist gave me Angrogel without a AI and in 2 weeks I become Dizzy and Nauseas im guessing from an elevated estrogen level. I dumped my urogist/androgel and switched Dr's.

My new doctor put me on Arimidex .05mg EOD, asked me to clean up my diet/workout then come back for blood test and to start steroids if I desired. So heres what happened:

-I took it every other day for 3 days(.05mg) and felt avg I would say. Nothing special, but somewhat better.

-I took it the fourth night and had trouble sleeping as I was very hot. The next day I felt terrible!!!! (Dizzy again, anxious, hot) which was yesterday. Woke up today and I felt great!!!. All types of energy, libido back, back to myself. So Im guessing my E went to low and is now in the proper zone.

Anyidea how I should alter my dose as obviously .05mg EOD is too much for me. Please remember I am not on any AAS. Also should I consider DIM? Lastly how many days off before I restart arimidex . Thanyouj









Long Story below.
------------------------------------------------
My Story: Linked and Pasted.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...gh_e_need_help_

Brief history: I am 29 yrs old with low drive, lethargic, hard to gain muscle or lose weight and low libido. My doctor who I just met was asking me a source or time when this began. About 4-5 years ago I had a super virus/infection and had fever for 3 days straight. On the third night I had palpitations. After that I went through about a year of every heart test imaginable, depression, dizzyness, anxiety and was on xanex/lunesta etc until I had cardiac ablation. Afterwhich(3.5-4 years ago) the dizzyness started going away and I dropped 35 of the 50 pounds. I stopped all those meds( inderal/lunesta/crestor/xanex)that I was on presurgery. I have felt better with the weight loss but never fully felt like myself since. A few months ago my dr tested my Testerone and it was 199. My estrogen was 113. My thyroid function was within normal range.

I was then sent to a uroligist that put me on Androgel 1.62. I felt so much better right away (energy + mood) but after a few weeks I started getting hot flashes and SUPER DIZZY. I stopped the androgel right away.

I will keep updating this one every once in a while. My main diet log is here. http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...ity_life_to_165

Age : 29
Height 5'9
Weight: 193 after a few weeks of diet.
Waist: 40.5 inches.
Hair: I have fine thin hair. Over the last year I noticed continued hair growth on old man spots like ears, underside of my arms, and random fine hairs on my back.
Fat: I carry fat mostly on my stomach and man boobs. I have super skinny forarms/calfs.
hx: I never get sick, that was really the one bad time.
Drugs: I take lunesta occasionally if I have work the next day. Prilosec, and Zrytec. I only drink socially.
Labs:
Diets: Never ate great but not poor. Like sweets, but never eat fastfood. V-Dieted for a few weeks here and there but not long term.
Training- Have worked out on and off for 10 years(more off then on). Have worked out for about 2 months consistently now although I have a ton to learn. I don't think Im an overtrainer though.
Morning Wood- none.


Update: I waited over a month to see a anti aging type of doctor. He is a primary doctor that did a fellowship in antiaging. I was expecting him to suck as my pimary doctor/urologist really didnt know how to take care of this.

He was great and super down to earth. He spent over a half hour with me alone and asked every question imaginable and was thorough. He thinks my test shut down when I was sick 5 years ago and went over ton of diet/herbal changes. He put me on arimidex .5 EOD, and I am following up in a few months. He gave me some goals and wanted me to clean up my diet for a few months before giving me steroids. He had stated he likes to be ahead of the curve and mentioned HCG as a favorite treatment of his.

So I think Im going to be patient as I have a good feeling about this guy. Im hoping to clean up my diet, and lose weight before seeing him again. He stated well take some blood work, and discuss the plan of treatment together before anything starts which I liked.

Well anyone with any suggestions or advice will be appreciated. Ill update this anytime I see him. In the meantime his recommendations involved Paleo, high Vt C, fish oil, mostly organic grassfed meats, High intensity interval training, lifting 5 x 5/heavier weights when possible, and avoiding toxins. He said he would like to see my lose 10 pounds or so before we meet as well.

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brazilianguy
Level

Join date: Sep 2012
Posts: 115

Hi please someone answer and help me.
I'm 20 years old I took serms and my test went to 984 my lh to 12 but my estradiol is 38 pg/ml. I don't have thiroid problems my prolactin is 6.80 in a range from 3 to 17.70
I'm facing the high estradiol symptons like ED, no morning wood, no sex drive, poor atenttion

The only thing I want is to get my life back I'm very depressed I guess my height is 5'5" and my weight is 194 pounds. I'm fat specially in the belly fat. So I'm wondering if I can decrease my estradiol to a good number and stay with it definately by losing fat or is there any other way to control forever my estradiol to get back in my life as I'm not on TRT. Please answer my I'm very worried. I know KSMAN knows a lot about it.

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fightu35
Level

Join date: Feb 2008
Posts: 450

brazilianguy wrote:
Hi please someone answer and help me.
I'm 20 years old I took serms and my test went to 984 my lh to 12 but my estradiol is 38 pg/ml. I don't have thiroid problems my prolactin is 6.80 in a range from 3 to 17.70
I'm facing the high estradiol symptons like ED, no morning wood, no sex drive, poor atenttion

The only thing I want is to get my life back I'm very depressed I guess my height is 5'5" and my weight is 194 pounds. I'm fat specially in the belly fat. So I'm wondering if I can decrease my estradiol to a good number and stay with it definately by losing fat or is there any other way to control forever my estradiol to get back in my life as I'm not on TRT. Please answer my I'm very worried. I know KSMAN knows a lot about it.


Am I missing something..you post about serms...test..E2 thyroid.prolactin..what about diet and exercise..and estrogen,test,and serms are not the answer..be more specific then people can help

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brazilianguy
Level

Join date: Sep 2012
Posts: 115

TT - 987
Free T
979,5 pmol/L Sexo Masculino : 131 a 640 pmol/L

SHBG
23 nmol/L Condições basais:
Homens : 12 a 75 nmol/L

LH -
12,9 UI/L Adultos : Até 9 UI/L

FSH
4,9 UI/L Adultos : Até 10,0 UI/L

Estradiol
3,8 ng/dL Sexo masculino : 0,8 a 4,3 ng/dL

TSH -
3,4 mUI/L Acima de 20 anos: 0,45 a 4,5 mUI/L

T4 -
1,1 ng/dL 0,9 a 1,7 ng/dL

I'm not doing any diet or exercise but I'm young 20 years old with high estradiol. My TSH may be high but I don't feel any hipothyroid symptons but I do know that high estradiol interfere in thyroid too. I don't wake up with morning wood I have no libido and I'm facing ED problems just in masturbation I can have an erection. I'd like to know if I can low my estradiol to 22 by losing fat and solve my sexual problems. I need help I'm desperate. Do you need more information?

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KSman
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8019

Why are you posting your details in the sticky!

Create your own thread! NOT HERE. This is NOT a chat room.

Read the advice for new guys sticky.

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brazilianguy
Level

Join date: Sep 2012
Posts: 115

Sorry KSman I thought it was right to write here because I was telling about my E2 and if its possible to low it by losing fat and stay healthy definitely since my aromatization is not so high, could you answer me in my thread? I will delete my posts here soon

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Big Island J
Level

Join date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8

Hello,I'm a 64 yo longtime weight lifter/bodybuilder,I've been on a pretty regular routine of 200 mgs of test cypionate a week (from a doctor) for 6 yrs.,it's been great as far as life in general go's,I do construction work and in my late 50's I was always getting tired in the afternoon and workouts were a struggle,I've laid off it for a month or two here and there just because I thought I should,for any doubters Test works trust me ,I feel the effects of a shot within 12-14 hours,I usually inject around 6 in the morning and that first shot after laying off for awhile is like everyone says LOL-LOL-LOL.

My quick question is I've just started Liquidex (2nd week)I've been taking it 25 mgs twice a week the same days I take my test (100 mgs,mondays & thursdays) is this good or should I take it the day after the test?
I know it can be individual but maybe someone with long time experience can give me some tips,next time I have my blood work done I'll ask for a Estrogen count.

PS:For those who've never seen it there's a video on youtube just search for
"The Truth about Steroids Brian Gumbel"
It was this video that convinced me to try TRT especially the 70 yo bodybuilder.
Thanks

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KSman
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8019

Read this sticky, it has what you need know. Also see the protocol for injections sticky and advice for new guys. We do not want your personal details in any if the stickies, create your own thread please.

Arimidex/anastrozole can be taken at time of injection or next day, whatever routine is best for you.

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Big Island J
Level

Join date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8

yeah thats what i thought

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Receptor
Level

Join date: Mar 2013
Posts: 49

Would you need an AI if you were taking a SERM (Clomid?)...

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KSman
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8019

If taking a SERM, you would need an AI if your E2 levels are elevated. That is no different from a TRT context.

However, if your SERM dose is too high, high LH will over stimulate the testes and T-->E2 in the testes can be a large amount. Anastrozole is a competitive drug [with T] and as T levels in the testes can be very high, 80-100 times higher than serum levels, anastrozole is not effective inside the testes. Once E2 is created, AI's cannot do anything about that.

A few guys find that they have an exaggerated T-->E2 response to SERMs and need a larger dose. Many docs who prescribe SERMs prescribe doses that are too high. Ditto for hCG. And high hCG has the same effect as too much LH.

One then sees that talking SERM+hCG is stupid.

When you take a SERM, elevated E2 should be avoided. One reason has to do with how you feel. The other is that if you are attempting a restart, you do not want E2 around that would cause a rebound shutdown. For that reason, it suggested that one take 0.5mg anastrozole per week in OED divided doses past the restart attempt to prevent E2 from limiting or shutting off one's recovery. Those who are anastrozole over-responders will need to take less - as always.

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woodye
Level

Join date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2

happydog48 wrote:
Since this is a subject that comes up time and time again, I decided to start this thread so we can easily refer people to this information.

From the beginning...

Estradiol is an estrogen. It is known on blood tests as E2. Many people (even doctors) simply call it estrogen.

Why it Matters

There are basically two reasons we care about estradiol.

The first is that E2 is a powerful testosterone receptor antagonist. What this means is that estradiol binds to androgen receptors and renders them useless. When testosterone binds to an androgen receptor, it activates the receptor and you get the effect you're looking for. When estradiol binds to that receptor, it blocks testosterone from binding, yet it does not active the receptor, so nothing happens.

This means that if your estradiol is high, no matter how much testosterone you have, it isn't helping you as it should because too many of your androgen receptors are blocked by estradiol and your free testosterone has no where to go. Testosterone can't do you any good if it doesn't have receptors available to activate.

It can even get worse... because high levels of estradiol can cause the downregulation of androgen receptors. This means that your body may respond to higher levels of estradiol by creating fewer androgen receptors as cells are replaced in normal regeneration. In other words, not only does estradiol block the available androgen receptors, it causes your body to produce fewer of them in the future! This is one reason why raising testosterone levels may not have any immediate effect. It may be that your receptors have downregulated and so you'll need to lower estradiol and increase testosterone in order to get your body to upregulate again and this takes time.

The second reason we care about estradiol is that you also have estrogen receptors and estradiol binds to them and causes them to activate. This is fine if you want to grow man boobs, store fat on your belly, and have an enlarged prostate, but not so good if you want to look and feel like a man.

Where It Comes From

Brushing aside the highly controversial subject of environmental estrogens, the primary pathway for estradiol production is via the conversion of testosterone by aromatase. This means that the aromatase enzyme binds to testosterone and chemically converts it to estradiol. Think about that for a minute. Realize that this conversion is a double whammy. In one process you're losing T and gaining E. Obviously this is not good.

This is where aromatase inhibitors (AI) like anastrozole (brand name Arimidex - aka "adex" etc.) come into the picture. They bind to the aromatase enzyme and prevent it from converting your testosterone to estradiol. They do not work directly on estradiol nor on estrogen receptors. It is SERM's like Clomid and Nolvadex that bind to estrogen receptors. SERM's and AI's are different animals, so don't get them confused.

So an AI gives you the double whammy in reverse. It prevents the loss of testosterone to conversion and consequently lowers your estradiol which helps keep your androgen receptors available for testosterone.

E Follows T

Here's where doctors fuck up. They forget that E follows T. As your T levels go up, so will your E levels. If you're not doing something to control your E (like taking an AI) then you aren't really going to get anywhere with higher T levels because your higher E levels are just going to cancel out any beneficial effect from the T. Like I said, your T can't do you any good if all your androgen receptors are bound with estradiol.

For those of us with "age related" low T, this is a serious issue because our bodies are naturally trying to keep T low and E high by pumping out aromatase.

If you're younger and have low T for some other reason, aromatase may not be as much of an issue, but it still matters.

Fat

Fat produces estrogen and aromatase; even in men. If you're carrying extra fat, one of the best things you can do to help your hormone balance is to lose the fat.

In Range does not equal Normal

One of the problems you're likely to face is the problem of doctors believing that any blood test value that is "in range" is "normal" and therefor fine. I wish it was that simple.

Let's look at testosterone values. The range for Quest is 241-847 ng/dL. But those values are derived simply by looking at the values of everyone who has a blood test for testosterone. What's normal for a younger man is to be in the higher end of the range. What's normal for an older man is to be in the lower end of the range. Well low T might be "normal" but that doesn't mean it's good! I may be an older guy, but why should I be happy with low T simply because it's normal? ALL men of all ages should be in the higher end of the range if they want to feel good and perform athletically and sexually as men.

The same holds true for estradiol. The range is 13-54 pg/mL but "normal" young men are at the low end of the range and that's where you want to be as well.

Trust me, if your T is 250 and your E is 50, you may be "in range" for both values, but you aren't going to feel good or have anywhere near the athletic and sexual performance that would have if your T was 800 and your E was 15.

Natural Variation

All populations exhibit variation. The average height for men might be 5' 10" but we all know guys who are much taller and much shorter. This same variation applies to T levels, E levels, and reactions to various therapies. In other words, while the principals I've outlined hold true in general, how they specifically apply to you will vary. Be smart and deal with it.

Ok, that's enough from me for now. This is just a basic primer; there's a lot more to this subject so use this as a springboard to do more research on your own.

I'm sure others here will have significant things to say as well.

Good luck!

dog this is great information. i bin on test for 2 years ;from androgel to enanthante (100 mg a week) ,than testim now some home made sht i get in newark .here whtt goes,small dosages will get my levels to round 1000 but once over 600 ed sets in i argued with dr to put me on blocker n he refused, so after a while i stop taken the test n wen my range is from 200 to 450 everything is great (libido and erections )only to crash again and restart the process ;heres the question do i get on clomid for 4 weeks clean every thing out and than get back on the test with arimdex 0.5 twice a week appreciate the info

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