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Deca or Test for TRT?
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GeorgeCulp
Level 100

Join date: Dec 2010
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 59

I've been using testosterone enanthate for quite some time for my TRT program. I'm considering switching to Deca Durubolin because it does not aromatize nearly as much as testosterone as well it doesn't go through reductase to DHT.

Also, I was told, while the Deca will work, it will not show up in my test blood levels. That my Total, Free, and Bio-available numbers will go down. That Deca works anabolically by another mechanism.

Any thoughts from the resident smart guys?

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pcdude
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Join date: Jun 2010
Location: Arizona, USA
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You are already shut down from TRT, which means that you are not producing your own test. Switching to Deca will not replace yout test levels (will in fact supress), and you need test to survive (or at least lead a healthy life). Supplementing with Deca is an option, but has sides of its own, and I doubt anyone on this forum would recommend it.

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KSman
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What is your protocol and for how long?
Self medicating?

"it will not show up in my test blood levels" Not really "works anabolically by another mechanism" but because the lab tests are quite specific.

Why are you concerned about DHT? It is mission critical for virility.

Manage E2 as recommended in this forum.

Some guys taking deca only end up with a broken HPTA that cannot be fixed and cannot be restarted. This really seems to be ill-informed and stupid. Never heard of deca dick?
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...e_your_hormones


Try to not spread your case over multiple threads.

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oscar31280
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Join date: Nov 2009
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I've been wondering about this myself. I know all drugs have sides, but why don't people use newer steroids that don't aromatize into estrogen. I know I don't know all the facts but all steroids are basically testosterone with there chemical structure rearranged or something added. I believe I've also read on a few that don't aromatize into either estrogen or DHT but I'm sure it has it's own sides.

Example for someone like myself who just wants to fix his sex life/libido. Why not use a steroid thats more DHT based like Winny or proviron that wont aromatize into estrogen. I'm not worried about baldness (Already there), could drop the AI's which seem to give some sides, would have no gyno issues, and should have great libido from the rise in DHT.

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KSman
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The problem is that these designer hormones, like all steroid hormones, alter gene expression in the nuclei of the cells. A hormone will increase expression of some genes and reduce expression of others. It is like installing new drivers on your computer, some can make the computer unstable.

These designer [fake] hormones make some unintended changes to gene expression. With deca, guys can loose the ability to get erections. The root of that change is very likely in the brain. - how much fun is that? The classic example is how progestins cause women to have more cancers, blood clots, heart attacks and strokes. We see that a lot of guys get damaged by internet garbage 'legal steroids'.

Do not think that these designer hormones are testosterone, they are not and there is no understanding of what goes wrong and why so severe for some guys. The functioning of some cells can be broken.

As for aromatization, one can be on TRT and manage/optimize E2 levels very easily with anastrozole. So no need to be looking for a testosterone like drug that does not aromatize.

If you take a fake testosterone that cannot aromatize at all, then cells cannot make E2. E2 is very important for basic functioning of men and women. Remember that men have the female cellular mechanics, with small changes. If the brain cannot make E2 for local requirements, you have mental problems. [The adrenal glands still make some background T and E2.



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oscar31280
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KSman wrote:
The problem is that these designer hormones, like all steroid hormones, alter gene expression in the nuclei of the cells. A hormone will increase expression of some genes and reduce expression of others. It is like installing new drivers on your computer, some can make the computer unstable.

These designer [fake] hormones make some unintended changes to gene expression. With deca, guys can loose the ability to get erections. The root of that change is very likely in the brain. - how much fun is that? The classic example is how progestins cause women to have more cancers, blood clots, heart attacks and strokes. We see that a lot of guys get damaged by internet garbage 'legal steroids'.

Do not think that these designer hormones are testosterone, they are not and there is no understanding of what goes wrong and why so severe for some guys. The functioning of some cells can be broken.

As for aromatization, one can be on TRT and manage/optimize E2 levels very easily with anastrozole. So no need to be looking for a testosterone like drug that does not aromatize.

If you take a fake testosterone that cannot aromatize at all, then cells cannot make E2. E2 is very important for basic functioning of men and women. Remember that men have the female cellular mechanics, with small changes. If the brain cannot make E2 for local requirements, you have mental problems. [The adrenal glands still make some background T and E2.




That makes total sense. Thanks for the example.

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GeorgeCulp
Level 100

Join date: Dec 2010
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 59

My current protocol is 100mg testosterone enanthate im 2x per week. .25mg arimidex daily 300 iu hcg M-W-F.
2.5 mg finasteride daily.

KSMan your example above is great! Yet, I'm confused as to why just deca alone would not raise your test levels like that of enanthate or cypionate.

Does deca "work" by a different mechanism?



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Lover95
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KSman has said finasteride could also alter gene expression, even worse than deca. It's an interesting idea. Could you post a link to that thread KSman?

Maybe deca could be used with hCG as a source of testosterone. But, deca doesn't provide enough DHT, and DHT is the key to erectile vigor.

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KSman
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I did post a link. Were you thinking of something else?

Deca is not testosterone. Your idea that deca will raise testosterone levels is so wrong! Deca is not another testosterone ester. There are many designer androgenic steroids that are not testosterone. These drugs do different things to gene expression compared to testosterone. You are messing with cells at a very fundamental levels. There are vast numbers of differences from guy to guy, some are genetic variations, many more are epigenetic variations. For a few guys, these xeno-testosterones act like destructive software viruses. Deca only cycles can create deca dick. For a few, the effect is permanent and non reversible. There will always be lemmings jumping into the sea, hard to make them understand.

Why are you taking 2.5 mg finasteride?



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GeorgeCulp
Level 100

Join date: Dec 2010
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 59

KSman - excellent explanation of "why" deca doesn't increase test levels. Just the answer I was looking for.

I'm taking 2.5mg of finasteride because my DHT went to 2 - 2.5x max normal and we (me and doc) felt like it should be lowered. I now run mid-normal.

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