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First Cycle Test Enth/EQ/Dbol
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cameron55
Level 1

Join date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49

Hey guys. First a little stats. I am 26, 6'1" 195 lbs, bf 15% ish. I have been training for 5 years and my diet and training (fst-7) are in check. I have decided to run my first cycle of injectables (hate needles but am going to have to get used to it lol), I have done a dbol 6 week cycle in the past and was pleased with the results in a little bit of lean mass and great strength gains. Here is what I am thinking.

Weeks 1-5 Dbol oral 50mg/Day with liver support.
Weeks 1-12 Test Enth 500 mg/week, 250 mg E3D, probably monday/thursday
Weeks 1-10 EQ 400 mg/week, 200 mg E3D mixed with the test
Weeks 1-12 Arimidex .25 mg EOD
Weeks 14-18 Nolva 40/40/20/20

Few questions, should I continue the adex into the pct weeks and taper off of that? Also I may be able to extend the cycle to 14 weeks, 12 for the EQ would that be a better fit since I have heard that the EQ takes a while to get going? Any suggestions. Thanks for the input.

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smalsh
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Join date: Feb 2012
Posts: 102

I'm Running pretty much same cycle right now minus the dbol. I'm running adex up to pct but not in it. Also your EQ only needs to be ran 1 week less then your test for them to clear before pct. I would consider not mixing your test and EQ together all the time as that's 2ml shots each time which means you're left with pinning glutes only. I've come to love pinning my delts. Goes in like butter. If everything goes well and as planned then I would go 14 weeks. From what I've read you'll get more out of the EQ that way. I'm only about to start week 3 this week so the EQ hasn't hit me yet. The Test is starting to tho and feels great in the gym.

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hockeysledder
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Join date: Jan 2012
Posts: 204

My only cycle experience is a couple weeks on enanthate and dbol before having to switch to prop and dbol (my body hated the UGL enanthate, probably not something you have to worry about), so all my advice is based on reading I've done, but it's what I think the more experienced people around here will tell you.

You might want to cut your adex in half for week 12 - less test suring clearing time means less aromatization.

EQ should be run minimum 12 weeks, and I think also needs to be stopped 2 weeks before the test. That's 14 weeks plus 2 weeks clearing time, which is really long for a first cycle, since you don't know how well you will be able to recover. This is a little hypocritical of me to say, since my first cycle is 12 weeks of test, but I had a logistic reason for that - I wanted to spend my entire 12-week training cycle for my meet 'on', because powerlifting gear wrecks my body. In 8 weeks or so I'll know if that was a mistake or not.

The dbol looks fine. Are you planning to split it into 2-3 doses daily? I chose to run mine 25mg pre-training throughout and 50-75mg/day for the last 3 weeks, but that's because it was more important for me to be nice and bloated for my meet rather than have an oral kickstart. Using it pre-training (which is only 3 days a week) also gives me some nice aggression in the weight room... and amazing pumps during my accessory work.

I would suggest an 8 or 10 week TE cycle with a frontload, so your first injection would be about 1000mg of enanthate, then 250mg E3D from there. Presumably you have 250mg/cc oil, so you would probably want to split up the first shot and pin two sites rather than pin 4cc in one spot.

What are you planning to pin with? 3cc syringes with 1.5" 23g needles or something similar? I am pretty needle-phobic and managed 2x/week pins with "long" needles before I realized that I could pin my delts and quads with .5" 29g insulin pins. You can only shoot about 0.5cc per site that way (so you might as well buy 0.5cc pins), but sticking myself with two tiny slin pins is *way* easier mentally than pinning myself with a 1.5". If you think you want to go that route, I will dig up some of the threads on it for you, or you can probably find them by searching. I also have some random advice and observations on that method if you think you're interested.

If you go more than 8 weeks I would suggest using hCG as well (I would actually suggest hCG for an 8-weeker because it's so cheap and subq injections are so easy).

Sorry for writing you a novel, lol, I hope it helps.

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cameron55
Level 1

Join date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49

Thanks for the advice guys! Yes the dbol would be 10 mg pills, so split up a few times throughout the day. I will do some research on frontloading, but is that necessary if I'm running dbol to kickstart? I am also not sure about needles yet, still researching that and trying to get that to sink in because I hate needles. But from what I have read it seems like the norm is 23-24 gauge needles 1 to 1.5" long. Also about the ADEX i have read multiple places that it should continue into the pct? Is that not correct?

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smalsh
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Join date: Feb 2012
Posts: 102

From what I've heard from Vets you don't run Adex through pct. had heard about tapering it the last week as stated by hockey sledder. As for pins I use 25g 1-1/2 for my glutes and 25g 1" for my delts. They work well for me. Inject it slowly, you will be shaky first couple especially since you are already worried about. Follow proper injection steps and you'll be fine tho. After your first pin the area will feel swollen as you just pumped oil into it. Your mind will probably be racing but just relax and try not to worry about it. I would also run HCG throughout. I'm running 250iu E3D and it seems to be working great.

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butthole69
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Join date: Oct 2011
Posts: 83

I don't know if you have small leg muscles, but 2cc's go in fine for my quads (inner AND outer). That's 4 more sites right there.

EQ is too long-acting for this cycle.
Many people say 20mg of Nolva does the same as 40mg

You might want to hold off on the Adex until your nipples get itchy. Estrogen is good for anabolism and low E2 = less gains and dry joints. Even at 700mg of test a week, I don't get gyno. Bloodwork is the real way to go though. I only started running my Adex when bloods showed Estradiol at over 3x the norm. You must get bloodwork done precycle or else you won't know what levels you need to return to post cycle.

E2 management on-cycle also comes down to preference. Plus, you may not get E2 sides, but high estrogen is bad for your health anyways.

Unless you fear the pin as well, I would recommend not using a 29g for oils because of difficulty injecting, which causes shaking and high stream pressure which increase chance of scar tissue and PIP. Plus, 1" minimum unless you're in single digits, there's nothing more infuriating than oil depots dripping out of your injection site!

IMO, theres nothing like a "1 1/12 pin. 23-25g, with the thicker oils even 25g takes forever.

Bill Roberts wrote an excellent frontloading formula for long esters, I suggest you look into it if your going to frontload.

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hockeysledder
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Join date: Jan 2012
Posts: 204

I would definitely frontload TE, even with an oral kickstart, especially if you take the advice to do a shorter cycle. The faster you can get to steady-state blood levels, the better.

And I agree with everything butthole said about controlling estrogen. My training partner doesn't even bother unless he starts seeing sides - he would rather be carrying more water as it makes the gear fit tighter and (he claims) helps lubricate his joints. I use 0.25mg E3D because anything more than that and I start getting low estrogen sides (loss of libido, anxiety, achy joints). That's with research chem liquidex, though, so who knows.

You can use slin pins even with fairly thick oil - my TP flows like water, but my TE was very thick. The trick is to use the 0.5cc 29g pins - the smaller barrel means you can generate a lot more pressure, and generally you don't want to put more than 0.5cc in one spot with a 0.5" pin anyway. With the TP I actually found myself having to slow down. I have 1cc pins now and the timing is about right, but you have to push pretty hard.

If the oil is quite thick, you can run the barrel under hot water for 30 seconds, being careful not to get any water under the cap. With a borehole that small, you rarely wind up with oil leaking out. The one time I pinned TP in my glute with a 23g 1.5" is actually when I got the most leakage. You can also completely eliminate any leakage by dong what's called a Z-track injection, but that requires injecting a bit faster for comfort's sake.

You would have to be pretty fat not to be able to inject delts and vastus lateralis with 1/2" slin pins. If you're careful you can do vastus medialis as well. With a 1/2" pin, every square inch of skin is a new site, so you have 2-3 on each delt and at least a dozen on each leg. If you are lean enough you can pin the ventrogluteal site with a slin pin. Even if you wind up accidentally injecting subq, it's not a waste of gear, it just hurts.

If you do wind up going that route (and you might as well at least try it if you decide to run hCG and have to buy slin pins anyway), backloading slin pins in the way to go. It takes forever to draw oil through a 29g. Even a 25 is pretty slow. Running the barrel of the larger syringe under hot water before loading the slin pins makes the process way faster.

There is something to be said for just sucking it up and sticking a big needle in your ass, and I did twice a week for five weeks, but when I switched to prop I had to pin ED, and it takes me a while to work up the courage to stick myself with a 1.5" pin and causes a lot of anxiety. Slin pins are a godsend.

This thread has some good info about injecting oil with slin pins: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/..._sryinge_gauges

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Deadlift9
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Join date: Mar 2012
Posts: 10

Personally I would run 30-40mg of dbol. 50 is a little excessive for a first real cycle. Just my two cents

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cameron55
Level 1

Join date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49

Thanks for the help guys. Hockeysledder, thanks for the advice on pinning. I was thinking about my cycle and possibly taking out the EQ and just running test and dbol frontloaded since EQ takes so long to get started. And this is my first cycle and want to see how things go and add stuff on future cycles. I was thinking of raising the test to 750 mg/week or 375 mg/ E3D.

What would you recommend for needles at that point. The ml would be 250mg per ml. So I am assuming it would have to be either 1.5cc or 2cc needles? And is there ever a max amount you would want to shoot into one site, I would assume 375 mg into one site would be plenty fine. Thanks again!

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hockeysledder
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Join date: Jan 2012
Posts: 204

I think that's a good decision. If you're planning on cycling again, you've got plenty of time to play around with EQ later.

You want 3cc Luer lock syringes, 22g 1" pins to draw from the vial, and either 23g 1.5" or 25g 1" pins to actually shoot with. At 15% you can probably use a 1" pin even in the dorsogluteal site. Shoot me a PM if you have trouble finding any of that, you should be able to get it all domestic if you're in the US.

You can only put about 1cc in the delts (some people say 2cc, but I start to experience mild discomfort with anything over 0.5cc), you can put about 3-4cc in dorso and ventrogluteal sites, and you can put 2cc in your vastus lateralis. Not sure about vastus medialis. So you could probably pin 1.5cc anywhere you want to.

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Singhbuilder
Level 1

Join date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1110

No, you dont start adex when you start feeling/seeing sides. Adex is not there just to avoid gyno or sides, it will boost the potency of the test by not allowing it to aromatise thus leaving more free test to do its job.

Also, and IMO the most important is the effect uncontrolled oestrogen can have on your post-cycle recovery. Oestrogen is suppressive and high levels will hinder your recovery, this is what people do not realise. With a low dose adex you will not kill 100% of oestrogen but will inhibit enough to keep it in normal range.

In a perfect world you would get bloods to assess your oestrogen levels in regards to adex dose but most people go by how they 'feel' and use default doses such as 0.5mg or 0.25mg EOD.
Start on a low dose and taper up until you feel good and there are low/high oestrogen sides to assess your tolerance of adex.

SB

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cameron55
Level 1

Join date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49

Thanks for the info guys. And Singh thats what i have heard as well to run it through the cycle to actually stop them from occuring, not after the fact. So updated cycle

Weeks 1-6 Dbol, 50 mg/day
Weeks 1-14 Test Enth 750 mg/week, 375 E3D
Arimidex .25 mg E3D
Weeks 16-20 Nolva 40/40/20/20

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Singhbuilder
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Join date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1110

I would start out .25mg EOD instead of E3D.
Depending on your tolerance you wont have to go any higher.

SB

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hockeysledder
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Join date: Jan 2012
Posts: 204

Still not a big fan of 14 weeks. If you're going that long, though, you should strongly consider running hCG.

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Singhbuilder
Level 1

Join date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1110

hockeysledder wrote:
Still not a big fan of 14 weeks. If you're going that long, though, you should strongly consider running hCG.


Agreed, I would run hCG on any length of cycle. I would not run a 14 week cycle at all.

SB

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cameron55
Level 1

Join date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49

HcG would have to be pinned on seperate days right in seperate locations? Or is that something you can do on the same day? I will do some more research on HcG. Thanks for the tips.

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BigSkwatta
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Join date: Dec 2010
Posts: 799

Just shorten it to ten weeks. Its your first real cycle right?

If you use hcg it should be about 250iu every 3 days, you can pin it sub-Q or IM, although I read a study saying that IM is more effective but can't find it to post right now.

Just get half inch insulin pins and pin the hcg separate. I usually just fill the whole syringe up, and with the concentration I make it when I reconstitute it I use the same insulin pin 5 times before discarding and usually just put it either sub-Q on my stomach, or IM in the delt or tricep. Sometimes quad.

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