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The Best Cutting AAS?
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hammertime2
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Join date: Oct 2008
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curious to see what you think is the best cutting AAS for contest prep for cutting short cycle

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GGlife
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Join date: Oct 2008
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I hear test prop + tren ace is good to go

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saps
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Now of course there is no such thing as a cutting steroid as cutting is the end result of mostly diet and possibly cardio and other PED's which are not steroids like Clen, T3/T4 etc.

For contest prep it varies a bit but generally you see guys gravitating towards shorter esters and in terms of compound selection test, winny, mast and tren seem to be the products of choice

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yo6002
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http://tnation.tmuscle.com/...q=cutting%20AAS

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smith machine
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I will add something here just from my experience.

tren+test burns stubborn fat for me like nothing else.

When I increase the tren dose, I burn more when I increase the test dose I burn alot more fat.

Winny doesnt do dick for me.

Masteron seems to work similar to tren for me but ive always used it with test&tren so cant be 100% sure.

Without diet/cardio you can throw them all in the bin...

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hammertime2
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smith machine wrote:
I will add something here just from my experience.

tren+test burns stubborn fat for me like nothing else.

When I increase the tren dose, I burn more when I increase the test dose I burn alot more fat.

Winny doesnt do dick for me.

Masteron seems to work similar to tren for me but ive always used it with test&tren.

Without diet/cardio you can throw them all in the bin...



I agree cardio and diet need to be point on. Im talking about getting down to very low bf shredded stage May just try tren alone

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saps
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hammertime2 wrote:
I agree cardio and diet need to be point on. Im talking about getting down to very low bf shredded stage May just try tren alone

I'd still have a couple hundred mg's of test a week in there. Also as mentioned above the 'trifecta' of test mast and tren is a potent combo

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5stargeneral
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what can be someone that uses the test, tren, and mast combo feel on a daily basis, for example, when i use tren i get tired and cardio is tough, is it the same when the other two(mast n test) are added????? what would be the best AI to use for that so called trifecta cycle???

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saps
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5stargeneral wrote:
what can be someone that uses the test, tren, and mast combo feel on a daily basis, for example, when i use tren i get tired and cardio is tough, is it the same when the other two(mast n test) are added????? what would be the best AI to use for that so called trifecta cycle???


You probably used too much test with your tren then. There really is a limit of 200-250mg/wk thats it with tren at least for and most guys I know who do this protocol. On 1G of test even 400mg/wk of tren has me huffing and puffing from 1 flight of stairs or even a set of curls, let alone squats. BP is around 150/95. Switch that to 200-250mg/wk of test and I can run 600mg/wk of both tren and mast and BP is 110/75 and I barely get winded at all with anything.

So if you wanna focus on cardio keep the test low and the tren and mast can be as high as you want. Not to mentioned the test is the most aromatizable of the three

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gundecker
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saps wrote:
5stargeneral wrote:
what can be someone that uses the test, tren, and mast combo feel on a daily basis, for example, when i use tren i get tired and cardio is tough, is it the same when the other two(mast n test) are added????? what would be the best AI to use for that so called trifecta cycle???


You probably used too much test with your tren then. There really is a limit of 200-250mg/wk thats it with tren at least for and most guys I know who do this protocol. On 1G of test even 400mg/wk of tren has me huffing and puffing from 1 flight of stairs or even a set of curls, let alone squats. BP is around 150/95. Switch that to 200-250mg/wk of test and I can run 600mg/wk of both tren and mast and BP is 110/75 and I barely get winded at all with anything.

So if you wanna focus on cardio keep the test low and the tren and mast can be as high as you want. Not to mentioned the test is the most aromatizable of the three


Listen to Saps! Very knowledgeable on this!

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hammertime2
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Join date: Oct 2008
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saps wrote:
5stargeneral wrote:
what can be someone that uses the test, tren, and mast combo feel on a daily basis, for example, when i use tren i get tired and cardio is tough, is it the same when the other two(mast n test) are added????? what would be the best AI to use for that so called trifecta cycle???


You probably used too much test with your tren then. There really is a limit of 200-250mg/wk thats it with tren at least for and most guys I know who do this protocol. On 1G of test even 400mg/wk of tren has me huffing and puffing from 1 flight of stairs or even a set of curls, let alone squats. BP is around 150/95. Switch that to 200-250mg/wk of test and I can run 600mg/wk of both tren and mast and BP is 110/75 and I barely get winded at all with anything.

So if you wanna focus on cardio keep the test low and the tren and mast can be as high as you want. Not to mentioned the test is the most aromatizable of the three



what do you think of the blend? I think it's called Trenboline? Test/Mast/Tren

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saps
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hammertime2 wrote:
what do you think of the blend? I think it's called Trenboline? Test/Mast/Tren

It would depend on how its dosed. Most blends like that are heavy on test and I would not use them unless it was light on test. Right compounds but likely the wrong ratio/levels

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smith machine
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I do test/eq/tren/mast in those orders of doses highest to lowest and have no cardio problems.

If I drop the eq dose i get puffed between sets.

Just what works for me.

High test/high tren puffs me out hard...dont know why the eq has the opposite effect though even together with the high test/tren

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saps
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EQ is purported to increase RBC's which no doubt has a tie-in to the extra oxygenation or whatever you wanna call it.

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smith machine
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saps wrote:
EQ is purported to increase RBC's which no doubt has a tie-in to the extra oxygenation or whatever you wanna call it.


All AAS do this from what I have read and I believe the old tale that eq raises RBC to extra heights over other AAS is just that...an old tale.

There have been a few discussions on this subject and experts have said there is no reason why eq should do this significantly more than say test.

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FuriousGeorge
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Join date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario, CAN
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And which experts exactly do you refer to?

I ask because most of the experts I have read say that EQ raises RBC more so I am curious to see who dissagrees and why.

EQ has a side effect of raising EPO levels which is why it raises RBC more than other AAS...I have experienced this personally and found my blood pressure to increase in almost exact correlation with the EQ dose (I went as high as 750mg/w at which point my BP maxed out at about 190/120...at that point I cut out the EQ and it slowly came down as the EQ cleared my system (even though I was still running test and mast at the time). If you are going to argue that it was the total dose of AAS that was the issue I would dissagree because an equal or higher total dose of other steroids didn't do this to my BP (not even an equivalent dose of test and deca had my BP that high). I could also visually tell that my RBC was super high, besides the muscle pumps I was pink/redish all the time (if I did even slight activity I got flushed) so I had to tan constantly to cover it up.

I still think EQ is a good drug but only in small doses...300mg/w was enough for me to be very hungry all the time and have good recovery/stamina but not so much my BP was fucked. THe only way I would run it is during a bulk as part of a stack with other steroids just to improve hunger and stamina in the gym.

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saps
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Good post FG, very educational

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smith machine
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FuriousGeorge wrote:
And which experts exactly do you refer to?

I ask because most of the experts I have read say that EQ raises RBC more so I am curious to see who dissagrees and why.

EQ has a side effect of raising EPO levels which is why it raises RBC more than other AAS...I have experienced this personally and found my blood pressure to increase in almost exact correlation with the EQ dose (I went as high as 750mg/w at which point my BP maxed out at about 190/120...at that point I cut out the EQ and it slowly came down as the EQ cleared my system (even though I was still running test and mast at the time). If you are going to argue that it was the total dose of AAS that was the issue I would dissagree because an equal or higher total dose of other steroids didn't do this to my BP (not even an equivalent dose of test and deca had my BP that high). I could also visually tell that my RBC was super high, besides the muscle pumps I was pink/redish all the time (if I did even slight activity I got flushed) so I had to tan constantly to cover it up.

I still think EQ is a good drug but only in small doses...300mg/w was enough for me to be very hungry all the time and have good recovery/stamina but not so much my BP was fucked. THe only way I would run it is during a bulk as part of a stack with other steroids just to improve hunger and stamina in the gym.


Ill find the articles and list them give me a couple of days its been so long.

My understanding (from my memory that is which may not be 100%) is that all AAS increse red blood count as a byproduct of increasing EPO, as its EPO which causes more red blood cells to be released from the kidneys.

I think blood pressure is more of a personal thing. Im on 1g eq and @ 131/75

If I increase my tren, my bp goes up straight away, if my estrogen goes up, my bp goes up straight away but not even close to as high as yours was holy smokes!!

Hunger for me in the first 6 weeks or so was tough but as levels settle down no problems just about self control nothing dramatic. Nothing like even 0.25ml ed GHRP6...now that is HUNGER I struggle to control!

I did frontload so levels would have settled down pretty quick. Levels continuously raising over a long period of time really screwes me up...the faster I get them consistent the more normal I feel sooner.

I get the most cardio performance increase from winstrol over anything else by far, does this mean winstrol increaqses red blood cell count the most? Maybe but personally, I doubt it (but i could be wrong).

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smith machine
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An article I have found written by William Llewellyn

Steroids and Red Blood Cells

Anabolic/androgenic steroids display a wide range of physiological effects. Androgen receptors are found in numerous body tissues including skeletal muscle, skin, scalp, liver, heart, prostate, brain and nervous system, bone, adipose and kidney tissue, and consequently these drugs, as our endogenous androgens, have numerous activities in the body aside from just building muscle. Although often misunderstood, many are well discussed. One topic however is rarely spoken about aside from passing mention, namely that anabolic/androgenic steroid can have a positive effect on red blood cell production. Red blood cell concentrations are of course integral to the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood, and increased production could possibly have numerous related benefits. You probably know of this link, however I thought many of you might wish to delve into the underlying mechanisms involved, as well as the physiological differences between anabolic agents in this regard.

Androgen Action in the Kidneys

Androgen receptors located in the kidneys are responsible for augmenting the stimulation of red blood cell production, or more specifically the process or erythropoiesis. They of course only play a supportive role; otherwise androgens would be essential to blood oxygen carrying capacity and life function, which they are not. Their role however remains significant. Men and women for example display notable variances in red blood cell content, with men carrying a much higher concentration of red blood cells in comparison. As follows, castration of the male testicles (eliminating testosterone production) will result in an approximate 10% drop of red cell mass, as well as a decrease in red blood cell diameter and life span. Women given therapeutic doses of testosterone similarly notice an increase in the concentration of hemoglobin of about 43g/l, and hematocrit increases by about 11%. Although not the key regulators of this process, we can see that androgens clearly influence the rate of erythropoiesis in humans.

The exact process of erythropoiesis appears somewhat complex, as do most body functions when under examination. Red blood cells begin as immature and physically undetermined stem cells, which reside in the bone marrow waiting to be called upon by the body for various blood and lymph system uses. In the case of red blood cells, the renal hormone erythropoietin is the signal that tells the bone marrow to form these cells from stem cells. They will develop first into a series of immature precursor cells, and ultimately adult red blood cells. The normal stimulus for the production and release of erythropoietin is hypoxia, or a lower than ideal supply of oxygen to the body tissues. High red blood cell concentrations alternately serve as a feedback mechanism, lowering the release of erythropoietin so that RBC concentrations to not get over elevated. Androgens are known to primarily act at the level of erythropoietin, enhancing the release of this hormone from renal tissue. It is also suggested however that androgens may affect the stem cell directly, perhaps by enhancing cell responsiveness to erythropoietin.

RBC Concentrations and Performance

If we would like to look at the performance enhancing effects of altering red blood cell concentrations, the most obvious group to focus on are endurance athletes. Blood oxygen carrying ability is inextricable to a person├??├?┬ó??s capacity for endurance exercise, so athletes in this area above others are aware of the methods and benefits of enhancing red blood cell concentrations. Endurance athletes for instance have made the practice of blood doping infamous. This procedure involves the removal and storage of blood cells, which are infused back into the body within one week of competition time. The athlete is given enough of a window (usually 5 to 6 weeks) to replenish the earlier withdrawn cells, so this infusion works to increase the overall concentration of red blood cells above what the body would produce normally.

A typical blood doping procedure as outlined can increase performance considerably. Figures using 750ml of packed red blood cells for example show a 26.5% increase in hematocrit (the ratio of the volume of packed red blood cells to the volume of whole blood) and an increase in the maximum oxygen uptake capacity of 12.8% after the procedure. In such a state it is easier for the body to transport oxygen to various tissues, enhancing aerobic capacity and endurance, and reducing submaximal heart rate and blood lactate buildup. Many have sworn by this method over the years, believing it to be the difference between winning and losing on many occasions. With the expected improvement in oxygen carrying capacity usually measuring between 5% and 13% in increase, we can certainly see why.

Anabolic and Erythropoietic Potency

Bodybuilders of course could usually care less about blood doping, however we do occasionally make note of the fact that steroids do enhance erythropoiesis. Although you most often hear talk of heightened RBC production with Anadrol and Equipoise in particular, this effect is not unique to these drugs. In fact all anabolic/androgenic steroids share this ability to one degree or another, usually in direct proportion to the anabolic capacity of the compound. This is due to the fact that the kidneys share a similar enzyme distribution to the muscles, namely high levels of 3alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzymes and little 5alpha-reductase. These two enzymes are the primary force in the disassociation of the androgenic and anabolic properties of various compounds, as they serve to alter their activity in specific target tissues. Renal tissue therefore respond to androgen stimulation on a very similar level to muscle tissue.

Poor anabolics such as dihydrotestosterone and Proviron, which are highly susceptible to 3HSD deactivation in the muscles, are also poor promoters of erythropoiesis. Potent anabolics such as nandrolone, testosterone and oxymetholone are similarly good enhancers of erythropoiesis. Since most steroids outside of DHT and Proviron are at least moderately potent anabolics, they should therefore also be relatively effective at increasing red blood cell concentrations. In clinical trials often there is no advantage reported with one agent over another, even in head to head simultaneous comparisons. For example, a study looking at the effects of oxymetholone, methenolone and drostanolone in 69 patients with aplastic anemia noted a group remission rate of 48%, with no therapeutic advantage being noted with any particular compound. Stanozolol, norethandrolone and methandrostenolone are also shown to produce a similar remission rate of about 50% with patient suffering from the same condition, with again no known advantage being apparent in any. Testosterone, ethylestrenol, nandrolone, fluoxymesterone and methyltestosterone have similarly also demonstrated a marked effect on erythropoiesis, with therapeutic potential.

And we need not look only at clinical patients with renal deficiencies to see a positive effect. A study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine for example followed the hematological effects of steroid use in a group of 5 power athletes over a period of 26 weeks, and compared them a control group of 6 non-using men. During this study an average increase of 9.6% was noted in hematocrit values in the steroid using athletes, compared to no change in the control group. The change in hematocrit of course was far from the mark that was recorded with the mechanical blood doping procedure, yet it is still an elevation worthy of note. We did however not see an overall positive change in this study that would be indicative of enhanced aerobic performance, due to the fact that hemoglobin (the pigment agent of red blood cells responsible for the transport of oxygen) levels did not rise significantly enough. Another study published in the same journal noted better results though, this time looking at the effects of long-term methandrostenolone treatment on six bodybuilders. The dosage used was a maximum of 20mg per day, which the subjects had taken in intermittent cycles for a year or more. Investigators reported increases in both hemoglobin and hematocrit, which were quite elevated in one subject in particular. Although not directly looking at maximum oxygen uptake capacity, these studies do make evident, at least the possibility, that anabolic agents might enhance aerobic capacity under the right conditions.

In Closing

Although clearly not as effective as mechanical blood doping, or even the newer practice of erythropoietin injections, anabolic/androgenic steroids still do enhance Red Blood Cell concentrations. Whether or not this will consistently equate into an increase in aerobic capacity in healthy athletes remains a matter of speculation and debate, however their base effect on the process of erythropoiesis does not. Since bodybuilders are rarely concerned with things such as overall oxygen uptake capacity and optimal aerobic performance, no doubt this debate is not of tremendous interest to the average reader. Perhaps of greater interest though is the simple understanding of the mechanism involved in erythropoiesis, and how anabolic steroids interact with this process. I hope also evident through this piece is the more primary focus on the different agents, and the fact that the enhancement of red blood cell production is a trait shared by all anabolic/androgenic steroids. Certainly those mentions of the vast superiority of one agent such as Anadrol or Equipoise over all others should be ignored.

Last line quote:
"Certainly those mentions of the vast superiority of one agent such as Anadrol or Equipoise over all others should be ignored."



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