Building High-Performance Muscle™
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SergeRedding
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Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

First, an introduction.

I am 21 years old, 5'10", 240lbs, ~16-18% BF, and have a training history composed of a solid 4 years of powerlifting.

My current 1RM's are as follow:

Squat: 510lbs
Bench: 385lbs
Deadlift: 565lbs
OH Press: 245lbs

I'm a (relatively) strong, fat guy who's looking to slim down while retaining a healthy chunk of the strength gains I've worked very hard for. I acknowledge that diet will be key here, and I intend to follow through 100% with an optimal diet, caloric deficit, and ongoing training program.

I have never been on gear, and my intention is to indefinitely run 2 week on/4(+) week off cycles. I'm a stereotypically broke college student, and I can barely afford the bare bones. What I came up was something like:

Weeks 1 & 2: Test prop ~150mg ED (1g a week) + Winny/DBol/Drol/Var/Nothing (depending on financials) + Arimidex 1mg ED

Weeks 3-6: Nolvadex taken on an as needed basis (for puffy nips)

...and repeat, I suppose.

I'd like to apologize in advance if the formatting of my post is off, and for any amateurish mistakes I made regarding my proposed drug regimen. I want the test prop to be the heart of my cycle, and for the orals to come into play every once in a while when I can afford them.

Please be gentle. Despite my passable lifts I have unfortunately delicate sensibilities.

Thank you!

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Toby Queef
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Join date: Apr 2009
Location:
Posts: 597

1mg of adex seems like quite a bit for someone who has never done a cycle and doesn't know how they'll respond. Where did you read that was a good idea?

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SergeRedding
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Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

You're right, I'm not sure if it was a typo or a brain fart. I'll amend that here by saying I'll do .5mg Adex EOD, and adjust from there based on androgenic sides.

I appreciate the input; thanks for catching that!

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juice20jd
Level

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 1000

Shorites are great, in the past i did many, but be aware of some drawbacks. You will not make gains like an 8-10 week cycle will provide. You will come off right around the time you feel like your gains are really coming on strong. At least IMO, you need solid dosages to get the most out of them, with at least 3 compounds. Which brings me to the final point.....with solid doses, multiple compounds, ancillaries, and pct drugs....they aren't cheap. Actually, a solid 2-3 week short cycle can get up there in price and be comparable to a basic 8 week cycle someone would run as their first. I'm definitely not saying don't do them...I liked them and they are definitely a solid legit option. Just be aware of the facts and have your expectations in the right place.

Your proposed nolvadex usage is flawed. "for puffy nips" and "as needed" does not translate to PCT, which is what you should be doing. You need a clomid or nolvadex recovery after a short cycle. No exceptions. Your AI use will combat E related sides, and as mentioned, should probably fall into the 0.5 mg EOD or 0.25 mg ED area.

Prop alone might be okay. But you may want to consider using a couple compounds stacked. Prop/npp/dbol, prop/tren/dbol, prop/mast/tren, prop/mast/var, prop/tren/winny, prop/drol/winny, etc etc etc etc...there are lots of solid, synergistic stacks out there. If you do shorties long term, you'll eventually try out different combos, but for your first, prop and one oral would be fine.

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SergeRedding
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Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

I appreciate the well thought out post. Everything you're saying is coherent and clicks.

How's this as an outline for my first shorty:

Weeks 1 and 2: Test prop 1g a week; Dianabol 50g ED; Arimidex .5mg EOD
Weeks 3 and 4: Nolvadex 20mg ED
Week 5 and 6: Off
Week 7: Shorty cycle #2

Again, the help is much appreciated.

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SwD
Level 4

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Quebec, CAN
Posts: 857

juice20jd if you liked them why did you stop doing them? Serious question, no jab intended.

There's another thread going on this 2 on/4 off protocol. I thought a few years back that if I kept 1-2 pounds per 6 week cycle, it'd be 20some pounds over two years of semi-permanent muscle, but it seems few people actually keep the gains.

BBB suggests adding a small dose of T3 for the 2 weeks on to make it better. And we can add peptides too throughout the whole 6 weeks to enhance the results but there must be a reason so few people do these shorties, that's why I asked why you stopped since you seemed to like them.

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juice20jd
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Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 1000

SwD wrote:
juice20jd if you liked them why did you stop doing them? Serious question, no jab intended.

There's another thread going on this 2 on/4 off protocol. I thought a few years back that if I kept 1-2 pounds per 6 week cycle, it'd be 20some pounds over two years of semi-permanent muscle, but it seems few people actually keep the gains.

BBB suggests adding a small dose of T3 for the 2 weeks on to make it better. And we can add peptides too throughout the whole 6 weeks to enhance the results but there must be a reason so few people do these shorties, that's why I asked why you stopped since you seemed to like them.


I started doing shorties after having difficulty recovering from a long cycle. The theory behind them was appealing at the time. There were a few reasons why i stopped....mainly because my goals changed, and my expectations along with them. I also was more willing to step away from the "safer" methods of cycling to get what i wanted physique wise.....basically a more open mind regarding risk versus reward. When using shorties, they allowed me to gain back what I had lost, and maintain it, while making some modest gains on top. I liked them because they suited my goals at the time. IMO they are perfect for performance enhancement, busting through plateaus, people wanting to make slower gains over the long term, and those needing some assistance getting back some lost gains.

Like any other method of cycling, you will lose gains afterwards when off. Generally speaking, the only people at a relatively advanced level who keep all their gains, are those who never come off, or take minor breaks and use peptides while off.

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SwD
Level 4

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Quebec, CAN
Posts: 857

juice20jd wrote:
Generally speaking, the only people at a relatively advanced level who keep all their gains, are those who never come off, or take minor breaks and use peptides while off.

Thanks, nicely put explanation. Peptides could be a game changer as far as effectiveness of this method.

I've always come off, I'm going off right now. But it might be the last time as I plan to use TRT levels (100mg a week of either Test, Masteron, or 50/50) from now after this true "off" period. I guess I'll be using the blast & cruise protocol after that, though these 2 weekers could come in handy as well.

The older you get, the more "off" periods suck, as it's not just performance and size that goes down, it's quality of life, period. It's like you can feel yourself going back to your "real age"... and it sucks.

I had never realized before your post that short 2 weekers cost as much as long cycles but it's true.

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juice20jd
Level

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 1000

SwD wrote:

The older you get, the more "off" periods suck, as it's not just performance and size that goes down, it's quality of life, period. It's like you can feel yourself going back to your "real age"... and it sucks.



True. Bouncing back with a 20 something year old system is far easier than once you get 30-35 plus. And, also the fact that "baseline" type levels for natural production is based/compared to a normal person....not someone who has altered that set point through cycling. Low normal for an average non user likely feels much much different than low normal for someone who has cycled a lot.

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Singhbuilder
Level 1

Join date: Apr 2008
Location: England
Posts: 1090

juice20jd wrote:
SwD wrote:
juice20jd if you liked them why did you stop doing them? Serious question, no jab intended.

There's another thread going on this 2 on/4 off protocol. I thought a few years back that if I kept 1-2 pounds per 6 week cycle, it'd be 20some pounds over two years of semi-permanent muscle, but it seems few people actually keep the gains.

BBB suggests adding a small dose of T3 for the 2 weeks on to make it better. And we can add peptides too throughout the whole 6 weeks to enhance the results but there must be a reason so few people do these shorties, that's why I asked why you stopped since you seemed to like them.


I started doing shorties after having difficulty recovering from a long cycle. The theory behind them was appealing at the time. There were a few reasons why i stopped....mainly because my goals changed, and my expectations along with them. I also was more willing to step away from the "safer" methods of cycling to get what i wanted physique wise.....basically a more open mind regarding risk versus reward. When using shorties, they allowed me to gain back what I had lost, and maintain it, while making some modest gains on top. I liked them because they suited my goals at the time. IMO they are perfect for performance enhancement, busting through plateaus, people wanting to make slower gains over the long term, and those needing some assistance getting back some lost gains.

Like any other method of cycling, you will lose gains afterwards when off. Generally speaking, the only people at a relatively advanced level who keep all their gains, are those who never come off, or take minor breaks and use peptides while off.


Sorry about thread hijack.
Juice I was just wondering, you seem to have experience with the 2on/2off cycle approach. Obviously I am no considering going on anytime soon as I am still in PCT from a 6-week cycle that shut me down bad.
I wanted to ask how quickly you felt 'normal' in your 2 weeks off? What SERM did you use for the off period and did you use hCG while on?
Do you think this short cycle style is viable option for someone with a fragile HPTA?

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juice20jd
Level

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 1000

Singhbuilder wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
SwD wrote:
juice20jd if you liked them why did you stop doing them? Serious question, no jab intended.

There's another thread going on this 2 on/4 off protocol. I thought a few years back that if I kept 1-2 pounds per 6 week cycle, it'd be 20some pounds over two years of semi-permanent muscle, but it seems few people actually keep the gains.

BBB suggests adding a small dose of T3 for the 2 weeks on to make it better. And we can add peptides too throughout the whole 6 weeks to enhance the results but there must be a reason so few people do these shorties, that's why I asked why you stopped since you seemed to like them.


I started doing shorties after having difficulty recovering from a long cycle. The theory behind them was appealing at the time. There were a few reasons why i stopped....mainly because my goals changed, and my expectations along with them. I also was more willing to step away from the "safer" methods of cycling to get what i wanted physique wise.....basically a more open mind regarding risk versus reward. When using shorties, they allowed me to gain back what I had lost, and maintain it, while making some modest gains on top. I liked them because they suited my goals at the time. IMO they are perfect for performance enhancement, busting through plateaus, people wanting to make slower gains over the long term, and those needing some assistance getting back some lost gains.

Like any other method of cycling, you will lose gains afterwards when off. Generally speaking, the only people at a relatively advanced level who keep all their gains, are those who never come off, or take minor breaks and use peptides while off.


Sorry about thread hijack.
Juice I was just wondering, you seem to have experience with the 2on/2off cycle approach. Obviously I am no considering going on anytime soon as I am still in PCT from a 6-week cycle that shut me down bad.
I wanted to ask how quickly you felt 'normal' in your 2 weeks off? What SERM did you use for the off period and did you use hCG while on?
Do you think this short cycle style is viable option for someone with a fragile HPTA?


After the first shorty, recovery or feeling "normal was fast, maybe 4-5 days with clomid therapy. However, if you continue with 2 on, 2 off, that timeframe lengthens. Something like 2 on 2 off, 2 on 2 off, 2 on 4-6 off would likely work okay in terms of being aggressive yet giving enough time to recover.

Is it a viable option? Absolutely. The thing I keep pounding though is that your expectations must be in the right place in order to be happy with the results. It's a decent option....think of how many people used the original MAG-10, or 4-AD-EC, or M1T, etc and got results they were pleased with.....how on earth could using real AAS at more solid doses and in stacks, with ancillary use and SERM therapy NOT be more effective over a similar timeframe?! Simple logic.

A fragile HPTA is going to be affected either way i would think. Shorties would help minimize that, but there are compounds and ancillaries that you could use in 8 weekers and probably recover from too.

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SergeRedding
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

Hey guys, me again.

I appreciate all the help I got; my first cycle experience was great! Libido and strength through the roof.

The cycle I intend to try after my 4 week period is up is:

2 weeks on:

Test Prop 1g a week (300-300-300-100)
Anavar (not ideal, but what I can get my hands on atm) 100mg ED
Arimidex .5mg ED (what I found works for me to keep puffy nips at bay)

Then,

PCT (2 weeks):

Nolva 20mg for 2 weeks, and then

2 more weeks off not taking anything before another 2 weeks on.


I know this is still rather uncomplicated and bare bones. Could I get someone to quickly verify if this is good?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.

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juice20jd
Level

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 1000

SergeRedding wrote:
Hey guys, me again.

I appreciate all the help I got; my first cycle experience was great! Libido and strength through the roof.

The cycle I intend to try after my 4 week period is up is:

2 weeks on:

Test Prop 1g a week (300-300-300-100)
Anavar (not ideal, but what I can get my hands on atm) 100mg ED
Arimidex .5mg ED (what I found works for me to keep puffy nips at bay)

Then,

PCT (2 weeks):

Nolva 20mg for 2 weeks, and then

2 more weeks off not taking anything before another 2 weeks on.


I know this is still rather uncomplicated and bare bones. Could I get someone to quickly verify if this is good?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.


It looks fine. One thing you may want to change is your inject protocol. From what I'm reading it looks like you'd be pinning mon-wed-fri-sun. Consider just switching to ED shots (125-150mg ED). It's only two weeks worth of pins, and you can easily rotate sites. The var is okay in shorties, it is better stacked with 2-3 other compounds IME, but at 100 mg ED it should be fine for you with the prop. I know you said 0.5 mg adex ED is what you found you needed last short cycle, but remember you were using dbol as well. I would think 0.25 mg ED would be enough for this go around.

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Singhbuilder
Level 1

Join date: Apr 2008
Location: England
Posts: 1090

I am following this thread closely so please keep us posted on your experience with short cycles.
From what I see, you are doing 2on 4off, why did you not go for the 2on 2off 2on 2off 2on 4off route? Just curious.

Also, after your 2 week PCT, did you feel 'recovered' so to speak? Did you feel ready for your next 2week blast or did you just think 'its been 2 weeks, time to go again'?
Sorry about all the questions, I have to be extra careful in my cycles in the future with a fragile HPTA.

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SergeRedding
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

juice20jd wrote:
SergeRedding wrote:
Hey guys, me again.

I appreciate all the help I got; my first cycle experience was great! Libido and strength through the roof.

The cycle I intend to try after my 4 week period is up is:

2 weeks on:

Test Prop 1g a week (300-300-300-100)
Anavar (not ideal, but what I can get my hands on atm) 100mg ED
Arimidex .5mg ED (what I found works for me to keep puffy nips at bay)

Then,

PCT (2 weeks):

Nolva 20mg for 2 weeks, and then

2 more weeks off not taking anything before another 2 weeks on.


I know this is still rather uncomplicated and bare bones. Could I get someone to quickly verify if this is good?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.


It looks fine. One thing you may want to change is your inject protocol. From what I'm reading it looks like you'd be pinning mon-wed-fri-sun. Consider just switching to ED shots (125-150mg ED). It's only two weeks worth of pins, and you can easily rotate sites. The var is okay in shorties, it is better stacked with 2-3 other compounds IME, but at 100 mg ED it should be fine for you with the prop. I know you said 0.5 mg adex ED is what you found you needed last short cycle, but remember you were using dbol as well. I would think 0.25 mg ED would be enough for this go around.


I appreciate it. I tried to do daily injections in my last cycle, but it was uncomfortable physically as my virgin muscles would get sore the next day and I found it mentally draining as well. Is it really worth pinning everyday?

Also your advice on the adex is well taken. I'll start with .25 mg ED and just adjust from there if necessary.

Thanks!

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SergeRedding
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Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

Singhbuilder wrote:
I am following this thread closely so please keep us posted on your experience with short cycles.
From what I see, you are doing 2on 4off, why did you not go for the 2on 2off 2on 2off 2on 4off route? Just curious.

Also, after your 2 week PCT, did you feel 'recovered' so to speak? Did you feel ready for your next 2week blast or did you just think 'its been 2 weeks, time to go again'?
Sorry about all the questions, I have to be extra careful in my cycles in the future with a fragile HPTA.


I wanted to go with 2on 4off so I could settle into a consistent routine instead of having to pay more attention to programming and ancillary compounds. I've made good gains without gear, and I don't plan to compete in powerlifting ever, so I'm fine with really slow gains. Granted, I will probably end up having to take an extra 4-8 week period off every once in a while to cover all my recovering bases (Or so I think? I may be wrong about this), as an indefinite steroidal routine, no matter how mild, still makes me nervous.

I'm still in my 2 week PCT for the first cycle (just a few days left), and I felt recovered and ready to go after one week into it, but I'm extremely inexperienced so I don't know what conclusions to draw from that.

For what it's worth, I'm enjoying the shorty. IMO it's a great way to go for someone with limited funds who isn't looking to go hulk-mode in a span of 3 months.

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aaron777
Level

Join date: Jan 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 80

Thanks for the informative thread. I am planning on running my first shorty, which will be my first cycle, soon. I am making good gains, am30 yo, and also kindof nervous about extended periods of recovery. The two week theory is very appealing. Gonna get my test checked first just to see where im at. Your numbers pre cycle are very impressive btw, what kind of strength gains did you experience on cycle?

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juice20jd
Level

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 1000

SergeRedding wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
SergeRedding wrote:
Hey guys, me again.

I appreciate all the help I got; my first cycle experience was great! Libido and strength through the roof.

The cycle I intend to try after my 4 week period is up is:

2 weeks on:

Test Prop 1g a week (300-300-300-100)
Anavar (not ideal, but what I can get my hands on atm) 100mg ED
Arimidex .5mg ED (what I found works for me to keep puffy nips at bay)

Then,

PCT (2 weeks):

Nolva 20mg for 2 weeks, and then

2 more weeks off not taking anything before another 2 weeks on.


I know this is still rather uncomplicated and bare bones. Could I get someone to quickly verify if this is good?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.


It looks fine. One thing you may want to change is your inject protocol. From what I'm reading it looks like you'd be pinning mon-wed-fri-sun. Consider just switching to ED shots (125-150mg ED). It's only two weeks worth of pins, and you can easily rotate sites. The var is okay in shorties, it is better stacked with 2-3 other compounds IME, but at 100 mg ED it should be fine for you with the prop. I know you said 0.5 mg adex ED is what you found you needed last short cycle, but remember you were using dbol as well. I would think 0.25 mg ED would be enough for this go around.


I appreciate it. I tried to do daily injections in my last cycle, but it was uncomfortable physically as my virgin muscles would get sore the next day and I found it mentally draining as well. Is it really worth pinning everyday?

Also your advice on the adex is well taken. I'll start with .25 mg ED and just adjust from there if necessary.

Thanks!


More frequent injects generally promote better stability. With prop EOD is acceptable, but I was thinking more along the lines of volume when suggesting ED shots.

I'd rather pin 1.25 ml ED rotating between 6 sites; glutes, quads and delts (or whatever you choose), over smashing 3ml's every other day between less sites. Less volume might help with the discomfort you experienced.

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SwD
Level 4

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Quebec, CAN
Posts: 857

SergeRedding wrote:
I wanted to go with 2on 4off so I could settle into a consistent routine instead of having to pay more attention to programming and ancillary compounds. I've made good gains without gear, and I don't plan to compete in powerlifting ever, so I'm fine with really slow gains. Granted, I will probably end up having to take an extra 4-8 week period off every once in a while to cover all my recovering bases (Or so I think? I may be wrong about this), as an indefinite steroidal routine, no matter how mild, still makes me nervous.

Makes perfect sense to me.

While T3 is not what I'd ever use normally, a very small dose for the 2 weeks "on" might even add more muscles according to BushidoBadBoy.

And you can add peptides in the 4 weeks off to keep more of the gains.

I hope you keep us posted.

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SergeRedding
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

aaron777 wrote:
Thanks for the informative thread. I am planning on running my first shorty, which will be my first cycle, soon. I am making good gains, am30 yo, and also kindof nervous about extended periods of recovery. The two week theory is very appealing. Gonna get my test checked first just to see where im at. Your numbers pre cycle are very impressive btw, what kind of strength gains did you experience on cycle?



I'm having a lot of fun with the 2 weekers. From what little experience I have, I'd definitely recommend them as a great introduction to gear. I set a new deadlift PR by 10 lbs and was able to hit weights close to my max for multiple reps (2-4) on all my other lifts. It felt great being able to hit high weights during the volume, as opposed to intensity phase of my training (I cycle through different methods of training, and usually only hit maximal poundage in the intensity phase).

Again, not earth shattering results, but I'm more than pleased.

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SergeRedding
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

juice20jd wrote:
SergeRedding wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
SergeRedding wrote:
Hey guys, me again.

I appreciate all the help I got; my first cycle experience was great! Libido and strength through the roof.

The cycle I intend to try after my 4 week period is up is:

2 weeks on:

Test Prop 1g a week (300-300-300-100)
Anavar (not ideal, but what I can get my hands on atm) 100mg ED
Arimidex .5mg ED (what I found works for me to keep puffy nips at bay)

Then,

PCT (2 weeks):

Nolva 20mg for 2 weeks, and then

2 more weeks off not taking anything before another 2 weeks on.


I know this is still rather uncomplicated and bare bones. Could I get someone to quickly verify if this is good?

Thanks in advance! I appreciate the help.


It looks fine. One thing you may want to change is your inject protocol. From what I'm reading it looks like you'd be pinning mon-wed-fri-sun. Consider just switching to ED shots (125-150mg ED). It's only two weeks worth of pins, and you can easily rotate sites. The var is okay in shorties, it is better stacked with 2-3 other compounds IME, but at 100 mg ED it should be fine for you with the prop. I know you said 0.5 mg adex ED is what you found you needed last short cycle, but remember you were using dbol as well. I would think 0.25 mg ED would be enough for this go around.


I appreciate it. I tried to do daily injections in my last cycle, but it was uncomfortable physically as my virgin muscles would get sore the next day and I found it mentally draining as well. Is it really worth pinning everyday?

Also your advice on the adex is well taken. I'll start with .25 mg ED and just adjust from there if necessary.

Thanks!


More frequent injects generally promote better stability. With prop EOD is acceptable, but I was thinking more along the lines of volume when suggesting ED shots.

I'd rather pin 1.25 ml ED rotating between 6 sites; glutes, quads and delts (or whatever you choose), over smashing 3ml's every other day between less sites. Less volume might help with the discomfort you experienced.



Good plan. Now that I've got some injects under my belt, I should now notice a difference between high and low volume pins. I'll give the ED shots a go this time around. Thanks for keeping me straight with the solid advice. It's much appreciated.

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SergeRedding
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 32

SwD wrote:
SergeRedding wrote:
I wanted to go with 2on 4off so I could settle into a consistent routine instead of having to pay more attention to programming and ancillary compounds. I've made good gains without gear, and I don't plan to compete in powerlifting ever, so I'm fine with really slow gains. Granted, I will probably end up having to take an extra 4-8 week period off every once in a while to cover all my recovering bases (Or so I think? I may be wrong about this), as an indefinite steroidal routine, no matter how mild, still makes me nervous.

Makes perfect sense to me.

While T3 is not what I'd ever use normally, a very small dose for the 2 weeks "on" might even add more muscles according to BushidoBadBoy.

And you can add peptides in the 4 weeks off to keep more of the gains.

I hope you keep us posted.




Will do.

I'll research T3 and peptides (I don't know what either of those are atm - embarrassing, I know), and look into adding them into the mix. Thanks for the advice.

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Judas
Level

Join date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 442

What amount of gains in lbs can one expect to make from a strong 2 week cycle of 2 a day work outs and perfect diet ? 5-10lbs ? and then once the test has left your system how much of these 5-10lbs can you keep if you are lifting consistently and have a strong diet all year ?

cheers

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Bill Roberts
Level 5

Join date: Mar 2003
Location:
Posts: 8669

For someone who has never used anabolic steroids and their training situation has them primed for excellent training during those two weeks, and with sufficient eating as well, 20 lb of scale weight is quite possible, with 10 lb retained post cycle.

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SwD
Level 4

Join date: Dec 2003
Location: Quebec, CAN
Posts: 857

Bill, as you have a lot of experience in these shorties, both for yourself and for other trainees, do you still recommend them, or after all is said and done, you discovered longer cycles are better overall when compared over a 6+ month period?

And is a 2 week blast followed by 4 weeks at TRT levels a good long term option?

Thanks

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