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Muay Thai for Self Defense
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harmony72
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Is Muay thai good to learn if i want to defend myself in the streets? There's seem to be a good school that teaches muay thai im my area. I've looked into krav maga, but the sense i get is that the schools doesnt seem that good. Of course im basing all this on reading online reviews and looking at the school's websites.

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Josann
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Muy thai if trained for sparring competition should be pretty good for self defense, especially if trained all out like boxing. If you train full speed then you will be more likely to defend yourself at full spped.

Don't overhink this. Just train it, put in the effort and you'll be fine when shit meets fan.

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MontisVerdes
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I think boxing is still the best bet for self defense in the street/bar. It is cheap as hell to train at a boxing gym, you'll get in good shape, learn how to avoid and counter a haymaker thrown by a drunk idiot, and it's good for close/crowded situations like inside a bar. You can't go wrong with Muay Thai either but I really like the head movement and footwork of boxing for self-defense situations.

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Sentoguy
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Generally, the quality of the instructor is more important than the style IMO.

That said, Muay Thai is a system designed to work under specific rules and specific conditions (it is designed for the sport of Muay Thai, not real world self defense scenarios). It will generally teach you effective kicking, knees, elbows, clinching skills, ok footwork, ok punching skills and decent to good defensive skills. So, if you do find yourself in a full blown fight, you will at least be ahead of the average person in terms of toughness, conditioning, and striking skills.

What it will not teach you though are things like verbal self defense skills, postural self defense skills, weapons defensive and offensive skills, multiple attacker strategies, grappling or anti grappling skills, cerebral self defense skills, legal and moral concerns, dealing with or launching ambush attacks, positional self defense, and a host of other relevant (and quite honestly just as if not more important) aspects of real world self defense.

No sport based martial art (be it MT, boxing, most BJJ in the USA, wrestling, or even "MMA") is going to address these things. All of those systems are geared for one on one unarmed mutually agreed upon fighting (and under those conditions and the rules associated with each they all excel).

But again, if the MT school is great and the Krav school is crap, I'd personally go with the MT school. At least you'll be getting great instruction in how to go toe to toe with one person and come out on top.

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Ranzo
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I would go with the muay thai school for a couple of reasons. I personally feel it is better to have a focus on a specific discipline or style and learn that style inside and out. Once you have trained for a while you can and will start to learn things from other styles that will work for you.

If you start with Krav I feel you are going to look like a lot of Krav people do and it is not pretty sometimes. Krav uses several Muay Thai techniques anyway so if you are well versed in Muay Thai you will be that much better off. As an example I started off in traditional styles(meaning Japanese aka karate) and I still have bad habits from those days of learning early on. I was taught certain things were the "best" way to do it. Now years later I am learning that it wasn't the best way. Not to say the karate way is wrong but there are certainly better ways to make power and be elusive in your striking and that is the key IMO to winning even in a self defense situation.

Krav likes to teach that aggression wins fights and that is true to a point and on certain levels. I think we discussed a "combat mindset" in another thread and that is what will allow you to push through and employ the stuff you have learned in the real world, however if your hands ared down and your technique is bad you are still in trouble.

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Sentoguy
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Ranzo wrote:
I would go with the muay thai school for a couple of reasons. I personally feel it is better to have a focus on a specific discipline or style and learn that style inside and out. Once you have trained for a while you can and will start to learn things from other styles that will work for you.

If you start with Krav I feel you are going to look like a lot of Krav people do and it is not pretty sometimes. Krav uses several Muay Thai techniques anyway so if you are well versed in Muay Thai you will be that much better off. As an example I started off in traditional styles(meaning Japanese aka karate) and I still have bad habits from those days of learning early on. I was taught certain things were the "best" way to do it. Now years later I am learning that it wasn't the best way. Not to say the karate way is wrong but there are certainly better ways to make power and be elusive in your striking and that is the key IMO to winning even in a self defense situation.

Krav likes to teach that aggression wins fights and that is true to a point and on certain levels. I think we discussed a "combat mindset" in another thread and that is what will allow you to push through and employ the stuff you have learned in the real world, however if your hands ared down and your technique is bad you are still in trouble.


Again, it kind of depends on the quality of teacher in both cases though.

I'll agree that I'm usually not impressed with the striking skills of a lot of Krav practitioners (or really any of the unarmed "active combat" skills), but, there are some who do showcase high level active combat skills, and their emphasis on weapons and situational self defense tend to somewhat make up for this lower level of skill. But, I've also seen plenty of "Muay Thai" trainers and fighters who didn't impress me all that much either in terms of their punching skills, footwork/mobility, and defensive skills. And MT has absolutely no weapons, situational or non physical self defense skills to offer. But, if the MT trainer is an excellent one, I'd train with them any day.

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Kirks
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It also would depend on the type of self defence the OP is talking about. If you are after a work out and a sport, and you just want to make sure you can hold your own on the street if some guy won't take no for an answer or tries to rob you or attacks your mrs, muay thai would be fine.

But if you don't care about the competitive side of things, and your training is purely about wanting to feel safe on the street, then a proper self defence style would be more appropriate.

That being said it's no good training at a shit school.

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nighthawkz
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+1 for muay thai. It is very applicable on the street and will also keep you in damn good shape if you take it seriously.

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MontisVerdes
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nighthawkz wrote:
+1 for muay thai. It is very applicable on the street and will also keep you in damn good shape if you take it seriously.


Most fights that people get into are against drunken assholes, or some dick who feels disrespected b/c you bumped into him or said "hi" to his girlfriend, or something similar. Muay Thai and boxing prepare you to be able to get hit without shutting down. That is a big deal, especially if you get sucker punched.

The other thing is, most drunken assholes are not in great shape. A guy who trains Muay Thai will be able to survive and outlast them.

I think the advantage of getting into fighting shape is WAY overlooked. Muay Thai will get you into fighting shape even if you'll never be very good at it. I know plenty of guys that train different styles who are in shitty shape and wouldn't last long in a fight that went more than a minute or two. I haven't met anyone that practices Muay Thai consistently that is out of shape.

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FightinIrish26
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MontisVerdes wrote:
I think boxing is still the best bet for self defense in the street/bar. It is cheap as hell to train at a boxing gym, you'll get in good shape, learn how to avoid and counter a haymaker thrown by a drunk idiot, and it's good for close/crowded situations like inside a bar. You can't go wrong with Muay Thai either but I really like the head movement and footwork of boxing for self-defense situations.



I happen to concur. Years ago I would have tilted more towards the Krav class because sports like boxing or MT teach you to fight - they don't teach "self defense" (the difference being all the crime avoidance, deescalation, weapons, etc. etc. that aren't found in sport arts)

But being as there's relatively few reality-based self defense classes that don't suck ass - and that's Krav included, because unless it's taught by a damned commando, odds are is the dude who's teaching it has never been punched in a bar before - I feel nowadays that you're better off really learning how to fight first, and then worrying about verbal skills and awareness later.

Honestly, if you're like most guys, you're not looking to learn self-defense, you want to be able to beat some guy's ass at a bar and you're calling it "self-defense" because that's what you'll tell the cops when they come right before they giggle and arrest you for assault. So that being said, a boxing gym or a Muay Thai school will fit that fine, especially because they'll get you accustomed to getting punched, which is perhaps more important than anything else.

Just realize that if you're learning these skills, it's advisable to do further research - a lot of it - to make sure you know WHEN to use them and when not to.

I suggest you start here:
nononsenseselfdefense.com

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FightinIrish26
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I would also look into boxing before MT, only because MT guys punch like shit and rarely teach anything but that straight ahead shit.

Slipping a punch and landing a hook to a guy's ribs in a bar will let him know real quick you're not the guy to mess around with.

That's just my opinion.

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LondonBoxer123
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I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.

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Sentoguy
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LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).

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FightinIrish26
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Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.

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legendaryblaze
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FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.


I dunno if I agree with this. I know some guys in my Judo club that will put you on your ass in a mere second, no matter what tactic you use. Mind you, these guys are cream of the crop national judoka, but just like your average Joe doesn't know his jab from his straight, the same clue less drunkars don't really have any tools against grappling.

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LondonBoxer123
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FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.


Truth. I disagree with you Sento, for the reasons Irish highlighted. Take the scenario in my post, if that hadn't been over in a split second, with a clear 'winner' but without anyone seriously fucked up, we would have had a full on brawl. I agree that Muai Thai could work in similar situations (although I think defensively it is inferior (certainly in terms of suitability for average joe)), but imo, anything grappling based (including judo), lacks the brutality and split-second decisiveness that striking gives you. In most everyday violence situations, in my eyes, that makes it an inferior system.

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LondonBoxer123
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legendaryblaze wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.


I dunno if I agree with this. I know some guys in my Judo club that will put you on your ass in a mere second, no matter what tactic you use. Mind you, these guys are cream of the crop national judoka, but just like your average Joe doesn't know his jab from his straight, the same clue less drunkars don't really have any tools against grappling.


They often have mates, with weapons or blunt objects to hand. If you are in a crowded bar, you need a lot more space to execute an effective throw than you do to land a hook.

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Sentoguy
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FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.


Ok, let's take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you "dead arm block" him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker's right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won't necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren't going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average "tough guy", the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, "spear" his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO'ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don't want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don't usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London's buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well. I'm purely talking about the situations where you don't really want to hurt someone, but you want to convince them that they don't want any part of fighting you either. For that purpose, grappling is pretty ideal, hence why it's taught to LEO's and security.

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Quiet Warrior
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The last stand up martial art I got my hands on was Muay Thai. It was a good idea to pay another 10 bucks to do that in addition to my Kickboxing class. What an amazing form of fighting. Love the clinch and the throws, most of the things we learned there are definitely applicable in a real situation. What was bugging me a lot though was the poor boxing skills many of the guys in this class had. The ones in our club who had switched from Boxing/Kickboxing to MT easily got along in sparring just by using their better punching skills.

Concerning Krav Maga - I believe you should at least take up boxing and some kind of kind of submission fighting art before you start doing all of these Anti-Terror-Fighting-Alpha-Streetsurvival-Special Forces Martial Arts. It's just like weight lifting. You learn the basic compound movements first and only if you have mastered them you may add up things. Most beginners I think have trouble understanding what the instructors want them to do. they do not own the instincts you have once you reach a certain point in fighting. Think about it: KM is a system that covers weapons, groundfighting, standup fighting with your hands, feet, knees and ellbows, clinching, situation control, deescalation techniques, general submission fighting etc etc.
All of these things are very cool and they definitely help you out.(not trying to bash Krav Maga!) But do you really think some average joe who spends the weekends drinking with his buddies will get anywhere with the density of all that stuff during the first 2 years? Unless you are trained by a freaking Expert or pay a lot of money to make it into a real military close combat class all of these cool things that look so great in action movies won't get you anywhere. I tell you whats going to happen. Our joe is going to get into a really bad situation one day. Because he thinks he can handle the aggresor he does not run away or call for help. Well, hey he trained some krav maga right? Thats what the special forces do right? And you don't f*ck with special forces right? Yea buddy. Tell that your lawyer if you ever wake up form your coma.

Most newbs have trouble keeping up their guard when they throw a punch or a kick during the first couple of months. You might wanna teach them that before you tell them what to do if a guy with the shiny bayonet of a M16 approaches you... Then there is footwork, taking punches, bobbing, weaving...all these things that require some months of training in an average boxing class HAVE to be pure instinct to you before you can even think of doing something fancy! You guys get what I want to say?
Hammer the basics first. Learn how to box, kickbox or thaibox. You can also take up Kyokushin if you want. Any decent form of standup fighting with full contact training is going to get you somewhere. Once you have learned the basics you may try other stuff and broaden your horizon of applicable tools.You can still join some good Krav Maga seminars by the way. Crosstraining is a great way to improve your martial skills.
Personally I would recommend taking up Kali in addition to boxing if you really want to be "prepared" for whatever comes at you.

I hope this post was not too long and I havent upset anybody.

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Sentoguy
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Either of the first two Jiu-Jitsu techniques demonstrated in this video (the first is actually the first technique that I was referencing, but done off of the "dead arm" block that he demonstrates later) will create a very clear "winner" in a fraction of a second if you have trained enough to do them correctly. And no, you aren't going to do crap to someone once they have you in either of those positions but beg them for mercy. And if you think you are, seek out Depasquale and have him put you in them and try (I've been there, so I know).



And just for the record, I think there are some techniques from traditional Jiu-Jitsu that aren't the most practical or can be improved upon. But the simple basic stuff can be brutally effective in the hands of a skilled practitioner.

For the other technique I described I unfortunately don't know of a video anywhere on the internet that displays it. Like I said, I like it because I feel that the SPEAR is an extremely effective, very simple and easy to learn and reproduce, even under high stress, and versatile defensive maneuver. In and of itself it can either KO someone, or break/dislocate their collar bone/acromialclavicular (AC) joint. And, from there you can switch to knees if you want, elbows, headbutts, kicks, punches or palm smashes, locking, wrestling (you could duck under, take their back, take them down and either hold them there or ground and pound them), chokes (duck under the arm and lock in an arm triangle), or Judo/throws (hip or head lock throw is right there).

I only detailed as simple standing armbar from there because I was originally talking about using grappling/jiu-jitsu to not harm someone too badly.

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Sentoguy
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LondonBoxer123 wrote:
legendaryblaze wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.


I dunno if I agree with this. I know some guys in my Judo club that will put you on your ass in a mere second, no matter what tactic you use. Mind you, these guys are cream of the crop national judoka, but just like your average Joe doesn't know his jab from his straight, the same clue less drunkars don't really have any tools against grappling.


They often have mates, with weapons or blunt objects to hand. If you are in a crowded bar, you need a lot more space to execute an effective throw than you do to land a hook.


Well sure, but your example was a bunch of guys playing soccer (I think, some of your terms and some of ours are the same but mean different things) on a field, accompanied by a team of friends also playing soccer. If your example had been in a crowded bar, where you were surrounded by people who you had no idea whether they were friend or foe and there were all kinds of potential weapons laying around (beer bottles, bar stools, pool cues, pool balls, etc...) not to mention that people may have actually been carrying weapons having anticipated getting into a fight, then of course that would have changed things.

That wasn't the example you gave though.

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FightinIrish26
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Sentoguy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.


Ok, let's take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you "dead arm block" him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker's right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won't necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren't going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average "tough guy", the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, "spear" his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO'ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don't want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don't usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London's buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well.


I'll be honest, as soon as you start describing moves like that my eyes gloss over.

Just keep in mind I'm not saying grappling DOESN'T work in the specific one-on-one situation. I'm just saying that I think hitting is better. I'm not trying to convert you, but realize that there's no chance I'm going to agree with you on this one, either.

In my experience - real experience - if you're gonna grapple with my buddy, I have time to hit you a shitload of times while your attention ISN'T on me. Honestly, I can't ask for a better time to sucker punch the shit out of you because you literally can't let go because of the guy in front of you, and you're all tangled up. That was a lot of fun sometimes.

Again, just my opinion.

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Airtruth
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Join date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 4295

Sentoguy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LondonBoxer123 wrote:
I agree with Irish, word for word. I was having a kickabout with some mates on the weekend, against some local lads. They weren't any good and decided to turn things into more of a brawl than a football match. One of them swung a haymaker at my mates head (also a boxer), and got the slip - shovel to the ribs move Irish is talking about. He took a knee, his mates backed off my mates, the lad recognised he'd made a mistake, apologised, and we called it a day with no more violence.

One of the best things about boxing is that it lets you hurt someone with control. In the situation above, if my mate had slipped and put a hard right hand on his jaw it would have been a different story, probably involving police and an ambulance. It's all very well knowing fancy tricks that are real shit hits the fan moves, but you can go a hell of a long way and end a lot of fights with a decent slip and a go-to punch or two. Being able to end a fight without going over the top is crucial when you end up dealing with the law afterward.



Well, if we're talking about ending things without seriously hurting someone, then Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, Judo and other grappling arts are going to be about as decisive yet non harmful as you're going to get. But, you could drop someone just as easily with a quick clinch and knee blast to the stomach or shin kick to the thigh as a slip and shovel punch.

If the OP has access to a great boxing coach that is cheaper or more convenient than the MT school, then I'd say go for it. But if not, MT will give him plenty of options on how to end a fight (which I agree isn't necessarily the same thing as a self defense situation).


I figured you would bring up the grappling end. I disagree here because - let's take what London said for a second - in that situation, grappling ENGAGES you and takes time. Things develop, people start grabbing you and yelling, 'Let him go bro, let him go!" and the next thing you know someone else gets hit, and you take a boot to the face or someone sucker punches you, blah blah blah.

Slip, punch, and the guy is on the ground, he's hurting but not in danger of dying, and you're separated already and saying to the other guys "Let's not take this farther." From what I have seen in my own experiences, the time of engagement that grappling by its very nature EXTENDS makes things so fucking tense that something else nearly always happens - you end up like the OK Corral scene at Tombstone.

Striking fast works better in my opinion.

And yes, I agree that MT will give him great options for that as well. I just like the punching techniques in boxing better... but anything is better than stupid haymakers, so in that we agree.

Just my opinion.


Ok, let's take what London said;

Some guy throws a sloppy haymaker at you with his right arm, you "dead arm block" him with your left forearm, you then simultaneously slide your left arm over and around his right arm at the elbow joint and place your right palm on either your attacker's right shoulder or throat (depending on the length of his srms and yours) and place your left palm onto your right forearm. from here a simple flexion at your left wrist joint will create a standing armbar on your opponent and render him not only complacent, but also very easy to move around (since they will be up on their toes) and you can use them as a human shield against their buddies (should your friends for some reason let one of them approach you). All of this occurs in a fraction of a second and your opponent will be more than happy to tell his buddies to back off due to the intense pain he will be experiencing the whole time you have the lock on.

Now obviously this takes training to pull off and won't necessarily work against a skilled boxer (but them most skilled boxers aren't going to throw sloppy haymakers at you in the first place), but against your average "tough guy", the shock and pain of feeling his radial nerve getting smashed between your ulnar bone and his radial bone is going to create a momentary stun or lapse in his attack and give you the time required to do the rest of the movement.

Or, my preferred method, "spear" his haymaker (causing a simultaneous strike to his radial nerve and carotid sinus), thus again stunning him (if no KO'ing him), and then (assuming this scenario, and assuming you don't want to simply knee him in the testicles and end the fight right then and there), trace your left hand down to his wrist and reach around underneath his elbow with your right arm, placing your right radial bone behind the Golgi tendon organ of his right triceps, your head on his shoulder (to prevent him from being able to hit you or get to your hands, and simultaneously pull your right wits towards you and push his left wrist in the opposite direction, again creating a standing armbar. He will again be up on his toes in severe pain and thus very easy to move around (if need be), and convince that he should tell his buddies to back off.

The good thing about grappling is that even though you can potentially destroy joints or render someone unconscious with it, you don't usually have to, and once they calm down and you let them go, they have sustained no permanent damage, and in fact there is no physical evidence that you harmed them in any way (better from a legal standpoint).

Now, had it been London's buddy by himself against this guy and a bunch of his friends, then yeah, striking would definitely be my choice as well. I'm purely talking about the situations where you don't really want to hurt someone, but you want to convince them that they don't want any part of fighting you either. For that purpose, grappling is pretty ideal, hence why it's taught to LEO's and security.


If his friends want to fight they won't feel his pain only see him being held. You and your friends get into a fight. In the US the cops may come, if not damage to surrounding stuff. Keep in mind you also have to keep him there. I started a thread a year or go, might be called end game or something. But the guy grappled and won twice in a fast food place but when he let go the guy attacked again, and when he didn't he had to hold the guy until the video ended. Plus it may not have even started from a punch but from wailing or one guy trying to grab the smaller. A quick one or two piece is an eye opener in many cases, as well as leaves you on your feet to maneauver where you can get away if you have tto.

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Sentoguy
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Join date: Nov 2005
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Quiet Warrior wrote:
The last stand up martial art I got my hands on was Muay Thai. It was a good idea to pay another 10 bucks to do that in addition to my Kickboxing class. What an amazing form of fighting. Love the clinch and the throws, most of the things we learned there are definitely applicable in a real situation. What was bugging me a lot though was the poor boxing skills many of the guys in this class had. The ones in our club who had switched from Boxing/Kickboxing to MT easily got along in sparring just by using their better punching skills.

Concerning Krav Maga - I believe you should at least take up boxing and some kind of kind of submission fighting art before you start doing all of these Anti-Terror-Fighting-Alpha-Streetsurvival-Special Forces Martial Arts. It's just like weight lifting. You learn the basic compound movements first and only if you have mastered them you may add up things. Most beginners I think have trouble understanding what the instructors want them to do. they do not own the instincts you have once you reach a certain point in fighting. Think about it: KM is a system that covers weapons, groundfighting, standup fighting with your hands, feet, knees and ellbows, clinching, situation control, deescalation techniques, general submission fighting etc etc.
All of these things are very cool and they definitely help you out.(not trying to bash Krav Maga!) But do you really think some average joe who spends the weekends drinking with his buddies will get anywhere with the density of all that stuff during the first 2 years? Unless you are trained by a freaking Expert or pay a lot of money to make it into a real military close combat class all of these cool things that look so great in action movies won't get you anywhere. I tell you whats going to happen. Our joe is going to get into a really bad situation one day. Because he thinks he can handle the aggresor he does not run away or call for help. Well, hey he trained some krav maga right? Thats what the special forces do right? And you don't f*ck with special forces right? Yea buddy. Tell that your lawyer if you ever wake up form your coma.

Most newbs have trouble keeping up their guard when they throw a punch or a kick during the first couple of months. You might wanna teach them that before you tell them what to do if a guy with the shiny bayonet of a M16 approaches you... Then there is footwork, taking punches, bobbing, weaving...all these things that require some months of training in an average boxing class HAVE to be pure instinct to you before you can even think of doing something fancy! You guys get what I want to say?
Hammer the basics first. Learn how to box, kickbox or thaibox. You can also take up Kyokushin if you want. Any decent form of standup fighting with full contact training is going to get you somewhere. Once you have learned the basics you may try other stuff and broaden your horizon of applicable tools.You can still join some good Krav Maga seminars by the way. Crosstraining is a great way to improve your martial skills.
Personally I would recommend taking up Kali in addition to boxing if you really want to be "prepared" for whatever comes at you.

I hope this post was not too long and I havent upset anybody.


I can't speak for KM, because I don't train in it. But, didn't you mention they are teaching de-escalation tactics? Don't you think that someone who was made aware about the dangers of real fighting and that you should only fight as a last resort would not stand and fight someone when they should have run or dialed 911? I'd say that in my experience, the RMA people have much less delusions of grandeur and are much less eager to stand and fight than sport martial artists (because that is ALL sport martial arts do teach you, albeit well).

But again, I can't speak for KM, and seeing how much it has grown in recent years I'm sure that the quality of instruction in some of the schools is not all that great (which can also honestly be said about boxing, BJJ, MT, or any widely available martial art/combat sport form).

I'm totally with you about basics though, if you aren't learning and drilling basics for the majority of your time when you first start out, you aren't going to go very far.

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FightinIrish26
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Airtruth wrote:
I started a thread a year or go, might be called end game or something. But the guy grappled and won twice in a fast food place but when he let go the guy attacked again, and when he didn't he had to hold the guy until the video ended. Plus it may not have even started from a punch but from wailing or one guy trying to grab the smaller. A quick one or two piece is an eye opener in many cases, as well as leaves you on your feet to maneauver where you can get away if you have tto.


Hahah I remember that thread. It was the prime example of why I'm not a grappling fan.

And this video remains my favorite when it comes to why I will always think that, for streefights, boxing does you best.

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