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Jiu Jitsu in Real Life Situations
 

idaho
Level 2

Join date: Aug 2009
Posts: 547

With all due respect to the members who post on the combat forum:

Having spent the last 7 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can tell you that once you are placed in a COMBAT situation, either in the theater of operations or the back alley of any major city, you will do anything and use any weapon you can, to kill your attacker. Period. Anything else is just waxing theoretical bullshit.

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Sentoguy
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Join date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6154

zecarlo wrote:

The thing is that in a self-defense situation, in which a TD is an option that won't get you killed, you probably don't have to have the TD skills of Kurt Angle to get the other guy down.


This is true, but we are talking about trying to take down someone who is much bigger, much stronger, and athletic (I realize it's a total hypothetical). Not to mention who is probably going to be striking you and using anything else at his disposal to hurt/stop you in the process, and on a realistic surface (which still hasn't been defined and could make a lot of difference either way). That's going to take a fairly high level of takedown skills to achieve.

And like I said, some BJJ schools do a good job of teaching takedowns, while others do not.


Also, too many people judge BJJ by sport comps and mma. MMA is not, in spite of what the UFC says, real. One can find old school Vale Tudo matches from Brazil to see something much closer to a real fight and how BJJ functions in that context.


I have never, nor will I ever say that the UFC is real. It's a sport, no question about it. Even the old school Vale Tudo matches were not real. Even 1 rule makes it a controlled environment, and therefore not real.

Referee= not real, padded floor=not real, only two people are allowed to get involved=not real, no weapons=not real, fight starts from opposite ends of ring/cage/fighting area=not real, fight starts which both fighters are ready and told to "go"=not real, designated time limit=not real, predesignated time, place, and venue=not real, not to mention all of the techniques, targets, and tactics that are outlawed in today's versions of MMA.

This is really a silly thread/question because it's completely hypothetical, and the real answer is that who wins is going to depend on the individuals in question (people fight, not systems), and the specifics of the situation. None of these need to know details can be gathered from this hugely hypothetical scenario.

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humble
Level 2

Join date: Nov 2005
Posts: 828

Sentoguy wrote:

Dude, if a monkey (thinking chimp or orangutan) attacked you you'd probably get your own nuts ripped off, along with your face. Those things are viscious. ;)


Lol...

zecarlo wrote:


The thing is that in a self-defense situation, in which a TD is an option that won't get you killed, you probably don't have to have the TD skills of Kurt Angle to get the other guy down.



Add a little randomness like tripping over your own shoelaces, a tree root protuding through the floor, some rough cement, a random object on the floor or a passer by who get's his thrills by joining in siding with your opponent and you could quite easily see how a pro may lose out in a street situation.


idaho wrote:
With all due respect to the members who post on the combat forum:

Having spent the last 7 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can tell you that once you are placed in a COMBAT situation, either in the theater of operations or the back alley of any major city, you will do anything and use any weapon you can, to kill your attacker. Period. Anything else is just waxing theoretical bullshit.


Amen!

Put a 100kg boxing bag in front of me and I am the meanest mother fucker around. Put an epileptic like junkie half my weight high off the sky and I reckon I'll be owned in under a minute!

Too many randoms and variables and peoples fight or flight cannot be contained to be measurable.

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zecarlo
Level 5

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2356

Sentoguy wrote:
zecarlo wrote:

The thing is that in a self-defense situation, in which a TD is an option that won't get you killed, you probably don't have to have the TD skills of Kurt Angle to get the other guy down.


This is true, but we are talking about trying to take down someone who is much bigger, much stronger, and athletic (I realize it's a total hypothetical). Not to mention who is probably going to be striking you and using anything else at his disposal to hurt/stop you in the process, and on a realistic surface (which still hasn't been defined and could make a lot of difference either way). That's going to take a fairly high level of takedown skills to achieve.

And like I said, some BJJ schools do a good job of teaching takedowns, while others do not.


Also, too many people judge BJJ by sport comps and mma. MMA is not, in spite of what the UFC says, real. One can find old school Vale Tudo matches from Brazil to see something much closer to a real fight and how BJJ functions in that context.


I have never, nor will I ever say that the UFC is real. It's a sport, no question about it. Even the old school Vale Tudo matches were not real. Even 1 rule makes it a controlled environment, and therefore not real.

Referee= not real, padded floor=not real, only two people are allowed to get involved=not real, no weapons=not real, fight starts from opposite ends of ring/cage/fighting area=not real, fight starts which both fighters are ready and told to "go"=not real, designated time limit=not real, predesignated time, place, and venue=not real, not to mention all of the techniques, targets, and tactics that are outlawed in today's versions of MMA.

This is really a silly thread/question because it's completely hypothetical, and the real answer is that who wins is going to depend on the individuals in question (people fight, not systems), and the specifics of the situation. None of these need to know details can be gathered from this hugely hypothetical scenario.

I wasn't being critical of you as I find you are one of the more sensible posters here. I'm just saying that before someone criticizes BJJ they should actually know something about it. The idea that the people who developed it did not factor in as many variables as they could conceive is wrong. People ask: what about biting? What about headbutts? What about weapons? What about multiple attackers? Ask Rorion Gracie, for example, these questions and he'll have an answer. It just might not be "use BJJ."

In short, BJJ as a self-defense system is not just the grappling techniques and limited striking techniques, but also the knowledge of when or if to use them and when to use something else. A BJJ instructor would not tell someone to bring a spoon to a knife fight if they owned a gun. It's a lot more comprehensive than people know. Situational awareness is part of it. One more example of this is that BJJ includes weapons retention techniques that are taught to police. Not all instructors or schools teach the self-defense aspects, that's true, but that doesn't mean none do or that they aren't part of BJJ.

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FightinIrish26
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zecarlo wrote:


In short, BJJ as a self-defense system is not just the grappling techniques and limited striking techniques, but also the knowledge of when or if to use them and when to use something else. A BJJ instructor would not tell someone to bring a spoon to a knife fight if they owned a gun. It's a lot more comprehensive than people know. Situational awareness is part of it. One more example of this is that BJJ includes weapons retention techniques that are taught to police. Not all instructors or schools teach the self-defense aspects, that's true, but that doesn't mean none do or that they aren't part of BJJ.


No, MOST don't teach anything that remotely resembles those aspects.

So while there may be some that do, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 19 out of 20 BJJ schools don't approach teaching anything more than a sport system.

It must be hard to see at night with them rose colored glasses...

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yoitspmart
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wouldnt you think if you went to train at an mma gym and they offered bjj classes it would be bjj geared towards mma?

Personally i think bjj is kinda gay pulling guard with other guys all the time and such but i would like to take a BJJ class that concentrated on takedowns and submitting them more so then the other stuff

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zecarlo
Level 5

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2356

FightinIrish26 wrote:
zecarlo wrote:


In short, BJJ as a self-defense system is not just the grappling techniques and limited striking techniques, but also the knowledge of when or if to use them and when to use something else. A BJJ instructor would not tell someone to bring a spoon to a knife fight if they owned a gun. It's a lot more comprehensive than people know. Situational awareness is part of it. One more example of this is that BJJ includes weapons retention techniques that are taught to police. Not all instructors or schools teach the self-defense aspects, that's true, but that doesn't mean none do or that they aren't part of BJJ.


No, MOST don't teach anything that remotely resembles those aspects.

So while there may be some that do, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 19 out of 20 BJJ schools don't approach teaching anything more than a sport system.

It must be hard to see at night with them rose colored glasses...

Since this board doesn't require you to post facts you can say whatever you want without worrying about being on a limb.

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MontisVerdes
Level 10

Join date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48

The thing to think about here is that if I were attacked by a guy a lot bigger than me, would I be better off being skilled at BJJ? And do I have a chance against a much bigger and stronger guy because of BJJ? I would say the answer to both of those questions is yes.

BJJ is a great martial art that COULD help you escape and possibly prevail in a bad situation.

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iStandOnMyHands
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Posts: 79

humble wrote:
bjj dude will have his nuts ripped in half by the powerful grip the powerlifter has. Either that or his mouth torn open. You think if a monkey put a triangle on me in the street I'll just tap or say "I give up?" lmao.... that's if my mates don't kick the fuck out of him before I tear his face off.
Fucken get real man.


no, you'd go to sleep. also, i dont think bjj would hurt your chances of winning a street fight. unless you were set on using a flying armbar or something. i think using the sweeps, takedowns, etc. would be good for a streetfight. but stuff like armbars, etc... idk how useful that would be. but just the fact that bjj can teach you to control the other opponent on the ground, has major advantages. as for this situation, i dont know. i would probably put my money on the behemoth.

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Heroic Wolf
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Brotha123 wrote:
Hey guys, I was just wondering how effective bjj would be in a street fight. I mean if you come across a strong dude about 5'10 230 squatting and dead lifting over 500 and the guy doing bjj is around 5'8 165, what the outcome would be? Do you think the bigger dude would be screwed?


I'm about 5-11, 165lbs. I grappled a 6-3 friend about 50lbs heavier than me who didn't know any wrestling or BJJ (as for his fitness level, he played hs football and still lifts periodically). I was able to submit him but it was still really tiring. I imagine I might've been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed. But then again, I'm not even remotely close to being some BJJ ace. Overall, I still put my money on the 230lb muscleman.

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XiaoNio
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2008
Posts: 203

Since this thread got bumped... True story, I got to roll with Arthur Jones at my old school (315 lb brother to Jon Jones). I'm a reasonably strong guy for 165. There's a lot of things you take for granted when you face someone significantly stronger or larger than you. I distinctly remember extending for straight ankle lock. He countered by sitting up, flexing his leg and grabbing me so I couldn't straighten out for the submission.

Basically, a different set of rules applies for grappling really big people. Sweeps and subs that may come easy against people your size may not even be feasible against someone who has a large size/strength advantage over you. I'd also guess it's hard to prepare for unless you're regularly rolling with people significantly bigger than you.

Long story short. Never underestimate the power of really strong people.

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twiceborn
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FightinIrish26
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Heroic Wolf wrote:
I imagine I might've been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed.


People who do BJJ and think it will save them in the street need to drill this line into their heads.

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Antonio. B
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Strong big guy with little fighting skill is basically useless- like a big bag... BJJ style goes for chocking, moves around the body, grabs legs then goes for arm and breaks it... weight matters of course but weight and pure strength without fighting skill isn't going to take you far... In a MMA ring jiujitsu is probably the most effective, while in a bar or on the street when there are other people, friends of your attacker... jiujitsu isn't the most effective though... in that kind of situation boxing with quick precise shots and quick move around would be way more effective... if you start wrestling with one guy, it takes longer than throwing three punches on the chin... while you try to break his arm the other guys will start kicking you head.. or just some men decide to separate you... lots of things depends on where and with whom you fight... In a military one to one combat again BJJ will be superior than other styles... While nice big muscles built in a gym and drinking protein shakes is impressive for girls, and not for fighters...

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zecarlo
Level 5

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2356

FightinIrish26 wrote:
Heroic Wolf wrote:
I imagine I might've been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed.


People who do BJJ and think it will save them in the street need to drill this line into their heads.


Really? GnP, as well as nut shots, foot stomps, soccer kicks and headbutts were allowed in the early UFCs and before that in VT in Brazil. How did Royce do?

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Robert A
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2167

zecarlo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Heroic Wolf wrote:
I imagine I might've been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed.


People who do BJJ and think it will save them in the street need to drill this line into their heads.


Really? GnP, as well as nut shots, foot stomps, soccer kicks and headbutts were allowed in the early UFCs and before that in VT in Brazil. How did RENZO, ROYLER, BUSTAMANTE, ISMAIL, AND GOES do?


Fixed that typo for you.

Royce was/is amazing, and I have heard that he is a FANTASTIC teacher, but his showing against Kimo and the Shamrock rematch make him a poorer example of a BJJ fighter who can excel against a STRONGER, yet capable, opponent.

Just my opinion.

RE: BJJ for "real" life situations.

My take on the BJJ vs boxing/kickboxing/stand up striking for self defense/violence with no ref is that they offer solutions to different potential problems.

I am of the opinion that rolling around on the ground in a non refereed environment where you or your allies are not in control of the immediate area is very risky. I can fully understand the logic of "Stay off the ground in the street!" Where I break from the the BJJ is shitty for self defense mantra is that in my experience the guys who train BJJ or grappling are the best at getting OFF the ground in one piece if they get there.

There are some VERY dialed in folks who are pretty harsh on making BJJ your primary style for self defense. They usually note unknown/uncontrolled environments, possible weapons on one or both parties(simply having a pocket knife can start a cascade where a fight turns lethal), limited mobility, and vulnerability to other aggressors as key reasons.

There are other VERY dialed in folks who look at the above and say "That is why we need BJJ, to not get killed on the ground if we wind up there."

My experience, and simple logic, tells me the trained grappler is in the better spot to un-fuck a bad situation on the ground. So I see the point of the guys who say the ground is hell, so don't go there. I also recognize the notion that the ground is hell, so we must prepare for it. At the end of the day, since I live in fly over country, it comes down to schools more than styles anyway.


Regards,

Robert A

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FightinIrish26
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zecarlo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Heroic Wolf wrote:
I imagine I might've been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed.


People who do BJJ and think it will save them in the street need to drill this line into their heads.


Really? GnP, as well as nut shots, foot stomps, soccer kicks and headbutts were allowed in the early UFCs and before that in VT in Brazil. How did Royce do?


For the last fucking time, that shit doesn't count for dick out in the street. It was still a sporting event.

The point was that in straight BJJ competitions, none of that shit is allowed, and the great majority of schools therefore don't train for it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - biting can negate half the shit that goes on in grappling. Breaking fingers negates half that shit. One pocketknife with a 3/4 inch blade can negate ALL of it.

Its simply an inadequate style for self defense. Some ground skills are necessary. A system based on them cannot be used for anything but sport.

Get over it.

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Heroic Wolf
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I agree with the viewpoint that BJJ is helpful in the sense that if you do wind up in the worst case scenario, on the ground and in bottom position, you can get back to your feet quickly with sweeps (which submissions can help set up). I guess one way to word it would be that self defense BJJ is focused on leaving the ground ASAP whereas sport BJJ is the reverse (lol Jake Shields).

I remember watching a YouTube vid on the US marines' martial arts training and elements of BJJ were involved. So it must be somewhat practical.

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FightinIrish26
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Heroic Wolf wrote:


I remember watching a YouTube vid on the US marines' martial arts training and elements of BJJ were involved. So it must be somewhat practical.



That is the wrong way to look at things. Just because the armed forces use it does not mean its good for self defense.

It's more so bored soldiers don't kill each other.

Read this. Explains it better than I ever could.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefen...

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punchedbear
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Heroic Wolf wrote:
I remember watching a YouTube vid on the US marines' martial arts training and elements of BJJ were involved. So it must be somewhat practical.


Have you seen the fight quest or similiar where they train with the USMC? Jason Chambers pulls guard on the guy and he pulls a plastic knife and proceeds to fuck up his leg. Last place you ever wanna be is on the bottom in a street fight where death is a very real outcome.

Also quote of that show the guy that wins the fight is the one who's buddies show up first with a gun.

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Sentoguy
Level 3

Join date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6154

punchedbear wrote:
Heroic Wolf wrote:
I remember watching a YouTube vid on the US marines' martial arts training and elements of BJJ were involved. So it must be somewhat practical.


Have you seen the fight quest or similiar where they train with the USMC? Jason Chambers pulls guard on the guy and he pulls a plastic knife and proceeds to fuck up his leg. Last place you ever wanna be is on the bottom in a street fight where death is a very real outcome.

Also quote of that show the guy that wins the fight is the one who's buddies show up first with a gun.


Another thing to consider is that in modern warfare (much like when the samurai first created Jiu-Jitsu), soldiers are often times going to be wearing body armor, kevlar helmets, and other protective glothing/gear. This makes striking far less effective, but since none of this clothing protects the joints themselves, they are still vulnerable to attack, thus making Jiu-Jitsu a natural choice of combative systems.

Irish also made a good point that BJJ can be trained full speed/force on a regular basis and helps soldiers to get in shape, engage in a friendly form of competition (which still has some combative application), and I'm sure burn off some excess energy.

In reality though, the army isn't planning on sending it's soldiers into battle armed with BJJ skills as their primary weapons. Unarmed combative skills would be pretty far down the list of priorities and things would have to be pretty bad for a soldier to wind up in such a scenario while on duty.

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Josann
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I'm a big fan of reality based applications with a combative aspect to them. Google you tube vids of Kelly McCann, Lee Morrison, and combatives. Karate (if trained correctly) boxing and combatives are what should be used in a "street fight"-whatever that is. Let's face it , real fights are not going to be two guys squaring off in a school yard, cage match fashion. If so then of course MMA is by far the best style.(Remember Couture-Toney?) If there are constraints like close quarters, sudden attack, multiple attackers then tactics need to be different.

If "an MMA guy is fighting a bodybuilder" is the question then unless the size difference is outrageous then I got to think the mma guy will win.

Best bet is to train it all and rely on a few go to techniques, train hard and as realistically as possible, and know what to do if you end up on the ground - an don't stay there.

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FightinIrish26
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Josann wrote:
I'm a big fan of reality based applications with a combative aspect to them. Google you tube vids of Kelly McCann, Lee Morrison, and combatives. Karate (if trained correctly) boxing and combatives are what should be used in a "street fight"-whatever that is. Let's face it , real fights are not going to be two guys squaring off in a school yard, cage match fashion. If so then of course MMA is by far the best style.(Remember Couture-Toney?) If there are constraints like close quarters, sudden attack, multiple attackers then tactics need to be different.

If "an MMA guy is fighting a bodybuilder" is the question then unless the size difference is outrageous then I got to think the mma guy will win.

Best bet is to train it all and rely on a few go to techniques, train hard and as realistically as possible, and know what to do if you end up on the ground - an don't stay there.


More or less what I've always thought myself. I LOVE Kelly McCann's stuff - between his unarmed stuff, his folding knife stuff, and his gun shit, he's about as close to having created his own modern day martial art as possible that can be used in a present day warzone.

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Aussie Davo
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zecarlo wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
zecarlo wrote:

As far as "no rules": BJJ does not leave you exposed unless you are dealing with more than one opponent or weapons. It was developed to be applied under the conditions of no rules. Of course that aspect is not as stressed in many schools anymore but traditionally BJJ has standing techniques and striking (both on the ground and on the feet).


THIS IS NOT TRUE.

BJJ, just by the close proximity of your bodies, leaves you open to all kinds of shit that is not taught in BJJ classes.

Maybe if someone, somewhere, is teaching a sort of combat JJ with strikes that relies on standing more and keeping the other guy's body AWAY from you, I'd agree, but the idea of grappling in any capacity inevitably leaves you open to broken fingers, biting, eye gouging, and all sorts of other nasty shit that is not regularly taught as BJJ.

Hell, biting alone is enough to nullify half the shit that you get taught as "self-defense" in a BJJ class.


You do know in Brazil they had something known as Vale Tudo? How about the Gracie Challenge? On the In Action tapes those fights were anything goes at times. The idea that the moves you mention can only be done by the other guy also reveals your ignorance.


You're a retard.

Vale Tudo does not allow biting, gouging, let alone stabbing your opponent to death

Good luck holding a triangle when some dude is grabbing a fistful of your gonads. Good luck pulling guard on someone only to get stabbed. Good luck trying to work submissions while his buddies are soccer kicking your head from behind.

Being on the ground is a retarded place to be in life or death situation.

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Airtruth
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Join date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4316

The funniest thing about this thread is that BJJ might actually hurt the 165lb guy. Especially if he's not advanced.

#1) Unless they streetfight regularly, less advanced fighting art(Except Boxing) practitioners tend to think too much in a fight.

#2) I've seen more 165lb guys who were supposed to lose a fight win by catching the bigger stronger athlete on the chin and throwing a a ton of punches, then the other way around. Specially if the fight has a chance of being stopped. You get about 10 seconds of punches in before the big guy knows what happened.

#3) Do you really want to start wrestling with somebody who can lift 3 of you? Even if you have great workout numbers, there's a certain amount of strength that comes with walking around with 50 extra pounds. God forbid he gets the drop on you he can simply use his weight.

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