The Intelligent & Relentless Pursuit of Muscle™
Powerlifting
 
Wendler's 5/3/1 Program - Part 5
1 2 Next Last
 

revchad
Level 3

Join date: Jul 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 187

Previous thread: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/..._program_part_4

Liv92 asked: "I just finished my first week (lol) of my first cycle using the Triumvirate. I was wondering on Bench press days I want to do Kroc Rows instead of regular DB rows... Should I still be using 5 sets cause kroc rows are a diff beast then regular DB rows. What do you guys think?"

I think Kroc once suggested that if you are not rowing the biggest dumbbell you have access to for high reps, then just keep trying to increase working with the heaviest you can for sets of 15. That said, what I personally do is a set of 5 db rows after each set of bench, working up in weight to a heavy 6th set for max reps. I haven't programmed it exactly like 5/3/1, but it parallels it in that I use a lighter weight for higher reps on the 5 week and so on. When I can do 20 with the heaviest dumbbell I'll have to figure out a different way to program it maybe.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

FX
Level

Join date: Dec 2009
Location:
Posts: 31

I want to focus on increasing my strength in the Big 3 SQ, BP, and DL. If I did a 3 day/week routine similar to this, would I still make progress on my BP? This set up would allow me to set PR on the last BP set. If I did 5/3/1 for the MP, I could only do the minimum amount of reps required on the last BP set.

Mon
SQ 5/3/1
SQ assistive

Wed
Bench 5/3/1
DB Row
5x10
DB MP
5x10
PU
5x10

Fri
DL 5/3/1
DL assistive


I do not have time to lift 4 days/week. The reason I do not do the 3 day/week routine that is in the book is because I can only DL on Fridays.




  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

dlp
Level

Join date: Aug 2004
Location:
Posts: 59

Been using 5/3/1 for 2 years, great results. I never had a question having read the first 2 ebooks, amazes me how many people want to change / mix and match / do 5/3/1 for wrist curls etc.

For 99% of people its not a question of how quick they will get strong, its if. If you've read the book and you're thinking "I'll only add 60 pounds to my bench in the first year? Maybe I should throw in some Westside / Russian training " then I expect you are benching the bar.

An important point most people miss is that you are neither limited by or forced to do the 5/10 pound increases. For instance if first cycle you squat 300x 10 on the 5 day and second cycle you add 10 to max and do 307 x 13 you've likely improved your max by more than the 10 pound!

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

TRTblastcruise
Level

Join date: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 545

FX wrote:
I want to focus on increasing my strength in the Big 3 SQ, BP, and DL. If I did a 3 day/week routine similar to this, would I still make progress on my BP? This set up would allow me to set PR on the last BP set. If I did 5/3/1 for the MP, I could only do the minimum amount of reps required on the last BP set.

Mon
SQ 5/3/1
SQ assistive

Wed
Bench 5/3/1
DB Row
5x10
MP
5x10
PU
5x10

Fri
DL 5/3/1
DL assistive


I do not have time to lift 4 days/week. The reason I do not do the 3 day/week routine that is in the book is because I can only DL on Fridays.






? Of course you CAN still make progress on your bench press if you're training it.....

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

FX
Level

Join date: Dec 2009
Location:
Posts: 31

TRTblastcruise wrote:
? Of course you CAN still make progress on your bench press if you're training it.....
First, I should have originally posted that the MP is a DB MP.

Let me rephrase the question. Is the set/rep scheme I posted for the DB MP as an assistive exercise for the BP optimal for increasing my BP strength? I picked the BBB set/rep scheme. I could do a 3x8 or whatever. I hope my question was not stupid.


  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

revchad
Level 3

Join date: Jul 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 187

FX wrote:
I want to focus on increasing my strength in the Big 3 SQ, BP, and DL. If I did a 3 day/week routine similar to this, would I still make progress on my BP? This set up would allow me to set PR on the last BP set. If I did 5/3/1 for the MP, I could only do the minimum amount of reps required on the last BP set.

Mon
SQ 5/3/1
SQ assistive

Wed
Bench 5/3/1
DB Row
5x10
DB MP
5x10
PU
5x10

Fri
DL 5/3/1
DL assistive


I do not have time to lift 4 days/week. The reason I do not do the 3 day/week routine that is in the book is because I can only DL on Fridays.


Are you restricted in the days you lift the rest of the week? You could consider Monday Squat, Tuesday Bench, Friday Deadlift and Press. That should allow you sufficient rest before an intense Friday, while also having two days of pressing each week. If that will not work for you, I might still add a bit of assistance pressing work on Friday anyways, even if just some rep work like pushups thrown in between sets or with your warmup, or just do it as you have laid out and you should be fine.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

TRTblastcruise
Level

Join date: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 545

FX wrote:
TRTblastcruise wrote:
? Of course you CAN still make progress on your bench press if you're training it.....
First, I should have originally posted that the MP is a DB MP.

Let me rephrase the question. Is the set/rep scheme I posted for the DB MP as an assistive exercise for the BP optimal for increasing my BP strength? I picked the BBB set/rep scheme. I could do a 3x8 or whatever. I hope my question was not stupid.




No I don't think its stupid. I think you can make gains to your bench press no matter what you do as long as you are still bench pressing. Sure, various assistance exercises will help, but I think as long as you're benching you'll still be making gains.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Jereth127
Level

Join date: May 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1691

revchad wrote:
Previous thread: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/..._program_part_4

Liv92 asked: "I just finished my first week (lol) of my first cycle using the Triumvirate. I was wondering on Bench press days I want to do Kroc Rows instead of regular DB rows... Should I still be using 5 sets cause kroc rows are a diff beast then regular DB rows. What do you guys think?"


Just FYI, getting an Olympic dumbbell solved my problem with DB rows instanttly. They can be pretty pricey(mine was about $45) but it's really only a one time investment and has helped me finally start developing a back. Very worth it indeed.

I've never really gone for all out sets since I got it, I tend to do 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps and I'm still making pretty good progress. I find e higher volume is preferable for me because when I first started training I never did any horizontal pulling. But that's just me I suppose.
Anyways, accessing your own Olympic dumbbell if your gym doesn't have them or only has light DB's, very recommended

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

jskrabac
Level 4

Join date: May 2010
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3968

Looking to bring up my BB Row as it is absolute shit. What do you think of using the 5/3/1 template for it, only shifting to 8/5/3 to focus on more reps since it's a back movement? I'm thinking of using 55/65/75 percent on my 3x8 day.

Personally, I see no reason why this won't yield just as great of results as I've seen for my other 4 lifts; I just wanted to check to see if there's anything blatantly retarded about it that I'm missing.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

revchad
Level 3

Join date: Jul 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 187

jskrabac wrote:
Looking to bring up my BB Row as it is absolute shit. What do you think of using the 5/3/1 template for it, only ...


Yes, you can do this, just do it on the same day as bench or press (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=137216&tid=) -- also, you can call it 5/3/1 even if you are more conservative when you set the training max at, say, 85% of your true max rather than 90%.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

sufiandy
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2009
Location: Washington, USA
Posts: 2851

jskrabac wrote:
Looking to bring up my BB Row as it is absolute shit. What do you think of using the 5/3/1 template for it, only shifting to 8/5/3 to focus on more reps since it's a back movement? I'm thinking of using 55/65/75 percent on my 3x8 day.

Personally, I see no reason why this won't yield just as great of results as I've seen for my other 4 lifts; I just wanted to check to see if there's anything blatantly retarded about it that I'm missing.


I'm using the juggernaut method set/rep scheme for BB Row which I liked better than 5/3/1 so you can get more volume and its not a 1RM type lift. You can modify it how you want but the general idea is good.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

jskrabac
Level 4

Join date: May 2010
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3968

sufiandy wrote:
jskrabac wrote:
Looking to bring up my BB Row as it is absolute shit. What do you think of using the 5/3/1 template for it, only shifting to 8/5/3 to focus on more reps since it's a back movement? I'm thinking of using 55/65/75 percent on my 3x8 day.

Personally, I see no reason why this won't yield just as great of results as I've seen for my other 4 lifts; I just wanted to check to see if there's anything blatantly retarded about it that I'm missing.


I'm using the juggernaut method set/rep scheme for BB Row which I liked better than 5/3/1 so you can get more volume and its not a 1RM type lift. You can modify it how you want but the general idea is good.


Do you mind PMing me the details? I'm unfamiliar with this.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

krazylarry
Level

Join date: Jun 2007
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 527

I have the regular 5/3/1 book, but there is no mention of AAS use in it. I also googled 5/3/1 and AAS and I could not find and answer. Could someone link me to what Jim has posted before about running 5/3/1 on cycle.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

TRTblastcruise
Level

Join date: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 545

krazylarry wrote:
I have the regular 5/3/1 book, but there is no mention of AAS use in it. I also googled 5/3/1 and AAS and I could not find and answer. Could someone link me to what Jim has posted before about running 5/3/1 on cycle.


Its going to be released in the hard copy version of 5/3/1 for powerlifting.

I thought it would be in any 5/3/1 for powerlifting so my ebook does not contain the information.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Fletch1986
Level 3

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 4858

I'm just wondering why not use BBB for the bb rows on one or both of the pressing days. Not saying what you're planning is wrong, I'm just curious.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Fletch1986
Level 3

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 4858

Would jump squats be a bad idea to do before my 5/3/1 leg work or should I just do olys or plyos for the purpose of increasing my total?

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

jskrabac
Level 4

Join date: May 2010
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3968

Fletch1986 wrote:
I'm just wondering why not use BBB for the bb rows on one or both of the pressing days. Not saying what you're planning is wrong, I'm just curious.


I'm actually doing a 6 day split push/legs/pull, so BB rows are like a main lift for the day. Most of what I've done has been higher volume like BBB, but the weights just aren't climbing as I'd hope. I always felt like back work was taking a back seat on my pressing days, so I've decided just to shift all back work to their own days. I think it'd be good for me to introduce a percentage based progression.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

TRTblastcruise
Level

Join date: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 545

Wendler talked about using BB rows as a main lift somewhere and went from something like 225 for 12 to 280 for 16 over a couple cycles.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

krazylarry
Level

Join date: Jun 2007
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 527

TRTblastcruise wrote:
krazylarry wrote:
I have the regular 5/3/1 book, but there is no mention of AAS use in it. I also googled 5/3/1 and AAS and I could not find and answer. Could someone link me to what Jim has posted before about running 5/3/1 on cycle.


Its going to be released in the hard copy version of 5/3/1 for powerlifting.

I thought it would be in any 5/3/1 for powerlifting so my ebook does not contain the information.

I started my cycle already, so waiting is not really in the cards.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

TRTblastcruise
Level

Join date: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 545

krazylarry wrote:
TRTblastcruise wrote:
krazylarry wrote:
I have the regular 5/3/1 book, but there is no mention of AAS use in it. I also googled 5/3/1 and AAS and I could not find and answer. Could someone link me to what Jim has posted before about running 5/3/1 on cycle.


Its going to be released in the hard copy version of 5/3/1 for powerlifting.

I thought it would be in any 5/3/1 for powerlifting so my ebook does not contain the information.

I started my cycle already, so waiting is not really in the cards.


I think i told you in the last thread before this one started what I do. Its not from Jim, but its worked for me.... 10 pound upper body increments, 15 pound lower body, two days lifting, one day rest, two days lifting, one day rest, repeat, so cycles go faster, I've skipped deloading but probably am going to now because I'm getting a bit worn down.

But I mean, honestly, is it that big of a deal what he says? You should be able to know what you can do with your body if you're using AAS.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

krazylarry
Level

Join date: Jun 2007
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 527

Thanks. Its not huge that he says it, but for the most 5/3/1 % have been dead on while clean, i dont want to do something dumb now.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Jereth127
Level

Join date: May 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1691

jskrabac wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
I'm just wondering why not use BBB for the bb rows on one or both of the pressing days. Not saying what you're planning is wrong, I'm just curious.


I'm actually doing a 6 day split push/legs/pull, so BB rows are like a main lift for the day. Most of what I've done has been higher volume like BBB, but the weights just aren't climbing as I'd hope. I always felt like back work was taking a back seat on my pressing days, so I've decided just to shift all back work to their own days. I think it'd be good for me to introduce a percentage based progression.


I really know sweet fuck all about programming but it just seems to me that 6 days a week is overkill. I know everybody is different but I've noticed I make much faster and more consistent progress when I train 3 days a week. Obviously it's not set in stone if I feel able and bored I'll got maybe four or 5 times a week but mostly I just train on three days and I noticed pretty much immediately how much faster I progressed.

Anyways, just a suggestion

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

jskrabac
Level 4

Join date: May 2010
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3968

Jereth127 wrote:
jskrabac wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
I'm just wondering why not use BBB for the bb rows on one or both of the pressing days. Not saying what you're planning is wrong, I'm just curious.


I'm actually doing a 6 day split push/legs/pull, so BB rows are like a main lift for the day. Most of what I've done has been higher volume like BBB, but the weights just aren't climbing as I'd hope. I always felt like back work was taking a back seat on my pressing days, so I've decided just to shift all back work to their own days. I think it'd be good for me to introduce a percentage based progression.


I really know sweet fuck all about programming but it just seems to me that 6 days a week is overkill. I know everybody is different but I've noticed I make much faster and more consistent progress when I train 3 days a week. Obviously it's not set in stone if I feel able and bored I'll got maybe four or 5 times a week but mostly I just train on three days and I noticed pretty much immediately how much faster I progressed.

Anyways, just a suggestion


My whole first year of training was 3x/week, and the next year after that was 4x. I was never happy with the rate at which I put on size, so I divided things up. I have actually made jumps in all my lifts now that I'm going 6 days and can dedicate a whole session to one particular movement pattern. There's greater focus to my training now. The total volume in one week is only slightly more than it ever was at training 4x/week.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Jereth127
Level

Join date: May 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1691

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I really know sweet fuck all about programming but it just seems to me that 6 days a week is overkill. I know everybody is different but I've noticed I make much faster and more consistent progress when I train 3 days a week. Obviously it's not set in stone if I feel able and bored I'll got maybe four or 5 times a week but mostly I just train on three days and I noticed pretty much immediately how much faster I progressed.

Anyways, just a suggestion[/quote]

My whole first year of training was 3x/week, and the next year after that was 4x. I was never happy with the rate at which I put on size, so I divided things up. I have actually made jumps in all my lifts now that I'm going 6 days and can dedicate a whole session to one particular movement pattern. There's greater focus to my training now. The total volume in one week is only slightly more than it ever was at training 4x/week. [/quote]


Ah cool, just though I'd throw it out there. Best thing I've learned from 5/3/1 is 'whatever works' so as long as progress is being made it's all gravy. Like I said everybody's different and it took me a while but I find that lower frequency with higher volume works pretty well for me

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

xfactor3236
Level 1

Join date: Jun 2011
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 246

if your really concerned with your bench, i would recommend the boring but big route, ive gotten bigger and stronger using it. I was very reluctant to start it but it has been great for my bench. you do more benching, common sense says it will get better

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Next Last