The Intelligent & Relentless Pursuit of Muscle™
Powerlifting
 
The Westside Method Thread II
 

black_angus1
Level

Join date: May 2009
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 836

michael_xyz wrote:
What are your thoughts on lifters using the box squat but using the same form as their raw squat?

For example, there's some videos of Stan Efferding doing box squats but his form is just like his raw squat and he really doesn't rest on the box much either. He isn't really pushing back a lot or any of that.

Do you think there's much use to this or do you think it could also be him trying to gauge his depth or something?


Box squats are used for three reasons (well, three main reasons):

1. To ensure proper depth (or, to train at different depths)
2. To allow the lifter so sit back farther than he could on a free squat
3. To break up the stretch reflex at the bottom of the squat

I'm not too familiar with Efferding, but what he does is more than likely a lot different what you need to be doing.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

black_angus1
Level

Join date: May 2009
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 836

Vladamir wrote:
Has anyone after maxing out taken a % of that max and doing as many reps as possible. I have seen people talking about it. It seems like a good idea for GPP in the accumulation block.

What about taking a % of your 1 rep max in sqaut/deadlift/bench and doing it in the accumulation block to increase GPP and get more time in the competition lifts with a weight heavier then your dynamic effort work

I did this with shoulder specific dumbbell work during my last accumulation phase usually targeting for 20+ reps and I noticed my shoulder strength fly up. Will this tear up my CNS doing the main lifts at about 75%?


I previously asked something similar in the last thread, I'll sum up what Storm told me.

Basically, as long as you can fully explain why you're doing it, and you have a plan in place for how to put it in your program and allow progression, by all means, go for it. The accumulation block already has a ton of emphasis on GPP, if you can handle it, try it.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

S.Fisher_47
Level

Join date: Apr 2011
Location:
Posts: 149

In the final weeks leading up to a meet I've heard people talk about a deload and then the meet week. Wouldn't that become two deload weeks? I'm switching to a Westside style again after 5/3/1 and I always finished the deload week, which ended on Wednesday and then Friday I weigh in and competed the next day. I'd appreciate any clarification on the difference between deloads and meet weeks.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

black_angus1
Level

Join date: May 2009
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 836

There isn't a true deload in the transformation phase, the entire phase is about keeping intensity as high as you can up to the meet while lowering volume, and then doing whatever you normally do during the meet week. Most people pretty much stay completely out of the gym during meet week, others keep on going until a couple days before the meet, and there's a million other ways to prepare during meet week. Meet week stuff is all personal preference and what works for you.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

LiquidMercury
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 3238

I do openers two weeks before the meet, and stay out completely other than recovery stuff during meet week. Meet week is all about getting healthy for me.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

StormTheBeach
Level

Join date: Jun 2009
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 3320

S.Fisher_47 wrote:
In the final weeks leading up to a meet I've heard people talk about a deload and then the meet week. Wouldn't that become two deload weeks? I'm switching to a Westside style again after 5/3/1 and I always finished the deload week, which ended on Wednesday and then Friday I weigh in and competed the next day. I'd appreciate any clarification on the difference between deloads and meet weeks.



Yes, I suggest two deloading weeks that focus on lighter weights with perfect form and max speed. If you did the intensification block correctly you are going to need some time to recover. Everyone is different. Everything I suggest is simply a guideline to figure out what works best for you and your training.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

asooneyeonig
Level

Join date: Jun 2011
Location: Nebraska, USA
Posts: 612

StormTheBeach wrote:
Everyone is different. Everything I suggest is simply a guideline to figure out what works best for you and your training.


the biggest problem i am having is find those lift variations that will directly/indirectly help my main 3 lifts. even more so on the upper body.

it does appear that snatch grip deads is helping my lower body lifts. which makes all my training partners wonder what the hell i am doing, lol. they just love ripping on anything anyways and this is just like throwing gas on fire.

i do see common lifts for benching that people use like floor presses, incline press, close grip, and board presses. i was thinking the next few blocks using floor presses with an exercise i want to be better at and always sucked, dips.

this brought me to another thought. how many alternate exercises are good to have? i assume newer lifters having 1-3 would be fine. and as you advance through the years those may even change and having upwards of 4-5 would work better.

i'd also like to add that i did not do near the volume on my upper body as i did for lower on the last accumulation block and i saw a considerable difference in the increase of lower body and not much in upper body maxes upon switching to the intensification block. good lesson to be learned there.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chicksan
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 298

Work and real life has kindof gotten in the way these past few weeks and is making getting to the gym 4-5 times a week rather difficult. Its really hit or miss on what days I can get there, how much energy Ill have, will I have my daughters with me, stuff like that.

If you were only able to get in two good lifts a week, would doing your speed work, then working up to a heavy double or single, then do your assistance work be enough to get by for 4-6 weeks? Work is blowing up, plus im getting married in 3 weeks, so time and cash is limited. Thanks for the input

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

mlekava000
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2010
Location: Washington, USA
Posts: 334

I know what you mean Chicksan I got married last summer and since I work in public accounting shit blows up every year Jan-April ha (and no, don't ask me for tax advice - I work in audit).

During such times I set my mindset on training whenever..whatever I can and just see it as a blessing any time I am even able to go to the gym. So, concentrate on the important things and when you go lift, let hte chips fall where they may. Calmer times will come, you will be able to focus more on your training. In the mean time just truck along - shit usually works out in the end.

The way I see it - you have limited amount of energy/free will if you will. When work and life starts creeping up and sucking more out of it you have to make room. Once that relaxes you can step the pedal to the metal and let your training take more priority.

Just remember in the end why we do this shit - to keep our lives balanced. No one in the world gives a damn how much you and I squat / bench or deadlift. However, your wife and your daughter are there for you and rely on you and will always bring you 100x more joy than any lift would.

Good luck with everything

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

LiquidMercury
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 3238

Chicksan wrote:
Work and real life has kindof gotten in the way these past few weeks and is making getting to the gym 4-5 times a week rather difficult. Its really hit or miss on what days I can get there, how much energy Ill have, will I have my daughters with me, stuff like that.

If you were only able to get in two good lifts a week, would doing your speed work, then working up to a heavy double or single, then do your assistance work be enough to get by for 4-6 weeks? Work is blowing up, plus im getting married in 3 weeks, so time and cash is limited. Thanks for the input


I'd combo the days.

ME work
DE work
Asst

One for upper, one for lower. Ideal? Nope. Going to help minimize losses? Yup. I've done it before when work/life gets a bit hectic with relatively positive results.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Fletch1986
Level 3

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 4865

LiquidMercury wrote:
Chicksan wrote:
Work and real life has kindof gotten in the way these past few weeks and is making getting to the gym 4-5 times a week rather difficult. Its really hit or miss on what days I can get there, how much energy Ill have, will I have my daughters with me, stuff like that.

If you were only able to get in two good lifts a week, would doing your speed work, then working up to a heavy double or single, then do your assistance work be enough to get by for 4-6 weeks? Work is blowing up, plus im getting married in 3 weeks, so time and cash is limited. Thanks for the input


I'd combo the days.

ME work
DE work
Asst

One for upper, one for lower. Ideal? Nope. Going to help minimize losses? Yup. I've done it before when work/life gets a bit hectic with relatively positive results.


Why ME work first?

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

LiquidMercury
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 3238

Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
Chicksan wrote:
Work and real life has kindof gotten in the way these past few weeks and is making getting to the gym 4-5 times a week rather difficult. Its really hit or miss on what days I can get there, how much energy Ill have, will I have my daughters with me, stuff like that.

If you were only able to get in two good lifts a week, would doing your speed work, then working up to a heavy double or single, then do your assistance work be enough to get by for 4-6 weeks? Work is blowing up, plus im getting married in 3 weeks, so time and cash is limited. Thanks for the input


I'd combo the days.

ME work
DE work
Asst

One for upper, one for lower. Ideal? Nope. Going to help minimize losses? Yup. I've done it before when work/life gets a bit hectic with relatively positive results.


Why ME work first?


Tried doing DE work first and found that I was simply too tired to make decent ME work and I was having a lot of technical break down. When I moved ME first I was able to maintain the same technical proficiency in both ME and DE work. I did work at a lower % for the DE work compared to when I placed DE prior so as to keep the rate of force development and bar speed high.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chicksan
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 298

LiquidMercury wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
Chicksan wrote:
Work and real life has kindof gotten in the way these past few weeks and is making getting to the gym 4-5 times a week rather difficult. Its really hit or miss on what days I can get there, how much energy Ill have, will I have my daughters with me, stuff like that.

If you were only able to get in two good lifts a week, would doing your speed work, then working up to a heavy double or single, then do your assistance work be enough to get by for 4-6 weeks? Work is blowing up, plus im getting married in 3 weeks, so time and cash is limited. Thanks for the input


I'd combo the days.

ME work
DE work
Asst

One for upper, one for lower. Ideal? Nope. Going to help minimize losses? Yup. I've done it before when work/life gets a bit hectic with relatively positive results.


Why ME work first?


Tried doing DE work first and found that I was simply too tired to make decent ME work and I was having a lot of technical break down. When I moved ME first I was able to maintain the same technical proficiency in both ME and DE work. I did work at a lower % for the DE work compared to when I placed DE prior so as to keep the rate of force development and bar speed high.


That sounds like damn good advice, thank you. As long as I can make it 2 days, thats exactly what Ill do until things slow down

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

S.Fisher_47
Level

Join date: Apr 2011
Location:
Posts: 149

I have a shoulder prehab question. Should I do the prehab stuff before or after an upper body workout? I usually do rotator work with ten and fifteen lb dumbells.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Fletch1986
Level 3

Join date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 4865

S.Fisher_47 wrote:
I have a shoulder prehab question. Should I do the prehab stuff before or after an upper body workout? I usually do rotator work with ten and fifteen lb dumbells.


I do both. Before the workout, I don't let the muscles fatigue any I just get them warm. And after, that's when I'll actually work the muscle some.

One of my favorite warmups is what I call "mini band wall climbers". I double a mini band, put it around my wrist and move my hands every which direction on a wall while maintaining at least a little tension on the band the whole time.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

pbclax1
Level 1

Join date: Nov 2007
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 2891

I am noticing within my 3 week waves, mainly on max effort bench day, the second week of these waves feel extra heavy. I have noticed this in the last couple of 3 week waves I have done. Basically have just been working up to a max effort on a different exercise each week, nothing special. Any thoughts on the possibility of why? Could it just be wrong exercise selection, order or intensity? I am still thinking I need to stop being a bitch about it, but its been constantly happening...

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

marlboroman
Level

Join date: Jun 2006
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1382

asooneyeonig wrote:
StormTheBeach wrote:
Everyone is different. Everything I suggest is simply a guideline to figure out what works best for you and your training.


the biggest problem i am having is find those lift variations that will directly/indirectly help my main 3 lifts. even more so on the upper body.



this brought me to another thought. how many alternate exercises are good to have? i assume newer lifters having 1-3 would be fine. and as you advance through the years those may even change and having upwards of 4-5 would work better.






nobody threw in on this , so I'll speak up . my current cycle went thru 5 ME variations for upper and lower each . I ended up repeating a couple towards the intensification block . next cycle will see 6 each......just enough to allow for weekly rotation thru 3 weeks of accumulation and 3 weeks of intensification.......no repeats .

and I would consider my lifts to fall in the "new lifter" category .






try some pin presses for ME upper . frikkin' rocks . talk about doing something ya suck at.....very humbling .

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

StormTheBeach
Level

Join date: Jun 2009
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 3320

marlboroman wrote:
asooneyeonig wrote:
StormTheBeach wrote:
Everyone is different. Everything I suggest is simply a guideline to figure out what works best for you and your training.


the biggest problem i am having is find those lift variations that will directly/indirectly help my main 3 lifts. even more so on the upper body.



this brought me to another thought. how many alternate exercises are good to have? i assume newer lifters having 1-3 would be fine. and as you advance through the years those may even change and having upwards of 4-5 would work better.






nobody threw in on this , so I'll speak up . my current cycle went thru 5 ME variations for upper and lower each . I ended up repeating a couple towards the intensification block . next cycle will see 6 each......just enough to allow for weekly rotation thru 3 weeks of accumulation and 3 weeks of intensification.......no repeats .

and I would consider my lifts to fall in the "new lifter" category .






try some pin presses for ME upper . frikkin' rocks . talk about doing something ya suck at.....very humbling .


That is pretty much the best answer you can give for that question. Experiment with exercises and only do the ones you are really really bad at.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Vladamir
Level

Join date: Jul 2011
Location:
Posts: 145

Yo STB nice reactive strength article. I was wondering should we do those jumps before our lower body dynamic effort day and max effort? or just ME?

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Vladamir
Level

Join date: Jul 2011
Location:
Posts: 145

ALso when it comes to back work I believe my back is holding me back with my bench. I would usually do Kroc rows on ME day and lat pulldowns or chins on DE day. Can I do BORs on ME day, kroc rows on speed day then chins throughout the week in extra workouts

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

louiek
Level

Join date: Nov 2011
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 639

@STB or anyone who has experience with adding in non-powerlifting shit.

Question 1) I find my hamstrings are my weakest link. Is doing GM and dead variations enough variation to use them within 2-weeks of eachother? If not, what squat variations should I use? I was planning on adding in wide stance ME box squats, and zercher squat/dead since my round back lifting sucks. My current cycle kinda goes however I feel when I go in, but looks something like this:

Conventional pin good morning
Sumo 3" deficit axle deadlift
Sumo good morning
Conv. 3" deficit axle deadlift
Conv. good morning
Etc., until I decide to go back and break a record on one of the movements.

Question 2) I'm going to start training strongman events regularly. How do I incorporate those into my workouts during accumulation, intensification, transformation? Events that need to be trained: atlas stones, farmers walk, yoke. I use keg/bar carries, sprints, and tire flips as conditioning.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

LiquidMercury
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2007
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 3238

1. Yes absolutely.

Personally I find that my hamstrings work a bit better with higher rep ME work or just accessory work. I try to make as much of my ME work squat related as possible.

2. I'd set aside an event day - possibly sub out a DE lower day (if you're good on speed). Choose 3 events to practice each time you do it then switch the next week.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chicksan
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 298

Vladamir wrote:
ALso when it comes to back work I believe my back is holding me back with my bench. I would usually do Kroc rows on ME day and lat pulldowns or chins on DE day. Can I do BORs on ME day, kroc rows on speed day then chins throughout the week in extra workouts


For a while, I did a basic BB style workout for my back because I felt it needed to some much work. Now, Ill do 2 rows on upper DE days and Ill do chins and pulldowns on Lower DE days. Rows are usually in the 4-8 rep range unless they are crock rows. Pulldowns and chins are usually higher rep range. Grips and variations are always changing from week to week, nothing is ever two weeks in a row.

Dows that make sense or did I just ramble for 5 minutes?

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

StormTheBeach
Level

Join date: Jun 2009
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 3320

louiek wrote:
@STB or anyone who has experience with adding in non-powerlifting shit.

Question 1) I find my hamstrings are my weakest link. Is doing GM and dead variations enough variation to use them within 2-weeks of eachother? If not, what squat variations should I use? I was planning on adding in wide stance ME box squats, and zercher squat/dead since my round back lifting sucks. My current cycle kinda goes however I feel when I go in, but looks something like this:

Conventional pin good morning
Sumo 3" deficit axle deadlift
Sumo good morning
Conv. 3" deficit axle deadlift
Conv. good morning
Etc., until I decide to go back and break a record on one of the movements.

Question 2) I'm going to start training strongman events regularly. How do I incorporate those into my workouts during accumulation, intensification, transformation? Events that need to be trained: atlas stones, farmers walk, yoke. I use keg/bar carries, sprints, and tire flips as conditioning.



1. Yes and add in the zerchers if your back is a weak link.

2. You have a couple of options depending on how often you can train. But, just using the same principals that have already been discussed in this thread and the last one:

Accumulation Block: All of your event training will be longer distances, lighter weights, and with limited assistive gear

Intensification: Shorter distances, heavier weights, less total volume, use gear

Transformation: Moderate weights at competition distance for speed.


You can add the events in pretty much however you want. I am only training for PL right now. Any event training I do is strictly for conditioning and only on off days. Adding in an even or medley after you get done, say, a DE lower body day could work well too. You will probably have to cut out some volume in your main workouts if you are going balls to the walls with the strongman training.

If you are planning on competing in strongman. I would suggest cycling training like this:

Week 1:
Day 1: Dynamic Lower
Day 2: Dynamic Upper
Day 3: Events

Week 2:
Day 1: ME Lower
Day 2: ME Upper
Day 3: Events

Repeat forever. I know this is very basic and not perfect but it is what I would do just to make the long term programming a little easier.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Kraky
Level

Join date: Mar 2012
Location: France
Posts: 54

Alright finished my first cycle (3 weeks acc, 3 weeks int, 1 week deload, test). You told me in the last thread to post here how the testing goes so here it is :

-Squats : 155kg (30kg PR). Very happy with that, form was pretty solid, didn't shift the weight forward like I did for box squats 3 weeks ago. Now I know I have to fix my box squat form though.
-Bench : 105kg (10kg PR). A bit disappointed with it because I floor pressed this weight 3 weeks ago and from what I've read my bench should be stronger. On the other hand, proportionnally, the progress seems normal so I don't worry about it, I'm aware the bench progresses the slowest. I probably didn't stay tight enough (especially lats) and didn't use enough leg drive. Also a problem I have is bar path, the bar rarely touches the same spot, will come with practice I guess. Technique wise, the bench is definitely the lift that needs the most work for me.
-Deadlift : 170kg (30kg PR, 175 didn't move at all). Great lift, right before the pull I noticed my right shin was bleeding a bit for the first time ever, I couldn't help to smile haha. Starting to become a man. Grip strength would have been an issue for 175 so I'll have to work on that as well. Will incorporate jumps and sprints next cycle, and do overall more volume.

So that's a total 70Kg PR (154 lbs.) in 7 weeks! Note that these are "noob gains", I didn't use a belt on my old maxes (didn't have one), and I have improved on technique a lot eventhough it's still far from perfect.

So, thanks for this thread, your log, your blogs and your youtube channel, they help a ton! Will record myself next time I test as more experienced lifters probably would notice flaws in my technique that I'm not aware of.

EDIT : Also I gained 7kgs, and I was fasting "lean gains" style (16hours fast, 8 hours feed), training around noon. Hadn't heard about carb back loading until you talked about it in your log, will denifitely experiment with it in the near future.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report