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The Westside Method Thread
 

marlboroman
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Join date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1382

black_angus1 wrote:
McDouche wrote:

While you don't have as many options as some people, you can buy your own bands and take them in. As long as you take care of them, these will last a very long time. You can build your own 1 and 2 boards, or buy rep boards if you don't have anyone to hold them for you. You can buy fat Gripz for another variation. I also like CG incline, and CG decline. Add in pauses, 3 different grips + illegal wides, floor presses, dead presses and a few pieces of equipment mentioned you have a ton of combinations for under $100. I'm sure your gym has one of those squat tampons, and you can bench w/ it for another variation.

If you are a raw lifter, the order I would purchase these are:
1 and 2 boards
fat grip
Bands (mainly just cause there are more things u can do w/ these than chains)
Chains


I'd also like to add in that you can do board presses without somebody to hold the board. Just double up a mini band, put it around your chest, and stick the board under there. It's not perfect, but it will definitely work.


STB, thanks for clarifying. That makes a lot of sense now. I think I was overthinking some things for the transformation phase. I feel like I have a decent understanding of intensification/accumulation, but transformation just takes experience to know what works.




the best way I've found for holding boards is to use one of those stretchy back-warmers . it holds the board/s at a perfect angle , and doesnt interfere with how the bar touches the board . get one a size too big and it should work for 3 and 4 brd as well . the velcro wore out on mine , so Im currently using a micro-band ; I like the back-warmer better .

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michael_xyz
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Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 246

@STB (or anyone else here, actually): Could you give an outline of what you do on DE Squat/Deadlift on Accumulation phase? Because you say not to do barbell movements and my gym doesn't have much equipment so right now I'm doing things like leg curls, leg press, leg extension, DB swings, back raises and different ab stuff. Not sure of what else there is though. Someone posted a great list of things which I'll look over again but just wondering how people mainly pick and choose those.

Thanks!

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marlboroman
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Join date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1382

michael_xyz wrote:
@STB (or anyone else here, actually): Could you give an outline of what you do on DE Squat/Deadlift on Accumulation phase? Because you say not to do barbell movements and my gym doesn't have much equipment so right now I'm doing things like leg curls, leg press, leg extension, DB swings, back raises and different ab stuff. Not sure of what else there is though. Someone posted a great list of things which I'll look over again but just wondering how people mainly pick and choose those.

Thanks!



me thinks you may be mis-interpreting something .

got a link or quote ?

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buddaboy
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Join date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2191

Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
I have recently ascertained that my medium grip bench press is stronger than my wide grip bench press. My understanding is that the wide grip bench press yields bigger potential in terms of heavy weight. Does this mean my lats are weak in relation to my triceps? Or maybe this grip just suits me better? I do not 'feel' my lats are weak, I am currently working on bringing up my biceps and abs, could this be affecting the wide grip bench? More so the biceps I guess.

I am 6.2" tall so I have very long arms, I feel that whilst not perfect my technique is pretty good i.e. no bouncing or back arching, I try and imitate the technique on the WSB videos.

Any feedback appreciated.


You do realize that you want as big of an arch as possible if you're looking at moving the most weight possible.


There are some really big benchers, typically raw, that don't use much arch at all. Using a more old school style.



Sorry - when I say no arching, I mean arching as in cheating to move more weight, I should have made that clear. I do maintain a tight arch in my back, although I would not consider it a big arch and definitely not the biggest arch possible.

Thanks guys.

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want2getlean
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Join date: Nov 2011
Posts: 581

buddaboy wrote:
I mean arching as in cheating to move more weight, I should have made that clear. I do maintain a tight arch in my back, although I would not consider it a big arch and definitely not the biggest arch possible.



What's a cheating arch?
An arch is an arch, it's allowed.

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Fletch1986
Level 3

Join date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4869

buddaboy wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
I have recently ascertained that my medium grip bench press is stronger than my wide grip bench press. My understanding is that the wide grip bench press yields bigger potential in terms of heavy weight. Does this mean my lats are weak in relation to my triceps? Or maybe this grip just suits me better? I do not 'feel' my lats are weak, I am currently working on bringing up my biceps and abs, could this be affecting the wide grip bench? More so the biceps I guess.

I am 6.2" tall so I have very long arms, I feel that whilst not perfect my technique is pretty good i.e. no bouncing or back arching, I try and imitate the technique on the WSB videos.

Any feedback appreciated.


You do realize that you want as big of an arch as possible if you're looking at moving the most weight possible.


There are some really big benchers, typically raw, that don't use much arch at all. Using a more old school style.



Sorry - when I say no arching, I mean arching as in cheating to move more weight, I should have made that clear. I do maintain a tight arch in my back, although I would not consider it a big arch and definitely not the biggest arch possible.

Thanks guys.


Are you referring to heaving the bar of the chest?

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michael_xyz
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Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 246

marlboroman wrote:
michael_xyz wrote:
@STB (or anyone else here, actually): Could you give an outline of what you do on DE Squat/Deadlift on Accumulation phase? Because you say not to do barbell movements and my gym doesn't have much equipment so right now I'm doing things like leg curls, leg press, leg extension, DB swings, back raises and different ab stuff. Not sure of what else there is though. Someone posted a great list of things which I'll look over again but just wondering how people mainly pick and choose those.

Thanks!



me thinks you may be mis-interpreting something .

got a link or quote ?


I don't know exactly where in this thread but I'm 99% certain he says that.

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louiek
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Join date: Nov 2011
Posts: 639

michael_xyz wrote:
marlboroman wrote:
michael_xyz wrote:
@STB (or anyone else here, actually): Could you give an outline of what you do on DE Squat/Deadlift on Accumulation phase? Because you say not to do barbell movements and my gym doesn't have much equipment so right now I'm doing things like leg curls, leg press, leg extension, DB swings, back raises and different ab stuff. Not sure of what else there is though. Someone posted a great list of things which I'll look over again but just wondering how people mainly pick and choose those.

Thanks!



me thinks you may be mis-interpreting something .

got a link or quote ?


I don't know exactly where in this thread but I'm 99% certain he says that.


I think he says no barbells on assistance work in the accumulation phase. During the DE stuff you use barbell lifts.

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marlboroman
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Join date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1382

michael_xyz wrote:
marlboroman wrote:
michael_xyz wrote:
@STB (or anyone else here, actually): Could you give an outline of what you do on DE Squat/Deadlift on Accumulation phase? Because you say not to do barbell movements and my gym doesn't have much equipment so right now I'm doing things like leg curls, leg press, leg extension, DB swings, back raises and different ab stuff. Not sure of what else there is though. Someone posted a great list of things which I'll look over again but just wondering how people mainly pick and choose those.

Thanks!



me thinks you may be mis-interpreting something .

got a link or quote ?


I don't know exactly where in this thread but I'm 99% certain he says that.



yeah , I dont know . a ways back I recall him mentioning something about keeping the supplemental/accessory movements non-specific ( DB's instead of barbell movements)during the Accumulation phase .

is that maybe what you're remembering ?

Im pretty sure that most folks ( I am for sure )are using barbells for thier speed work all thru the accumulation phase . if Im wrong , then I mis-understood something and stand corrected ......but will continue to do so regardless .

as far as supplemental/accessory movements go , I just rotate thru them . I just picked a bunch and switch 'em up weekly . you can make up a list on your own just by reading thru this thread or anything p'lifting .

but if your after what Storm does exactly , by all means wait for his response . his answers always seem to clear shit up .

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Macmade
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Join date: Oct 2011
Posts: 440

Fletch1986 wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
I have recently ascertained that my medium grip bench press is stronger than my wide grip bench press. My understanding is that the wide grip bench press yields bigger potential in terms of heavy weight. Does this mean my lats are weak in relation to my triceps? Or maybe this grip just suits me better? I do not 'feel' my lats are weak, I am currently working on bringing up my biceps and abs, could this be affecting the wide grip bench? More so the biceps I guess.

I am 6.2" tall so I have very long arms, I feel that whilst not perfect my technique is pretty good i.e. no bouncing or back arching, I try and imitate the technique on the WSB videos.

Any feedback appreciated.


You do realize that you want as big of an arch as possible if you're looking at moving the most weight possible.


There are some really big benchers, typically raw, that don't use much arch at all. Using a more old school style.



Sorry - when I say no arching, I mean arching as in cheating to move more weight, I should have made that clear. I do maintain a tight arch in my back, although I would not consider it a big arch and definitely not the biggest arch possible.

Thanks guys.


Are you referring to heaving the bar of the chest?


heaving the bar off the chest? do you mean bouncing the bar off the highest point on the chest created by the arch? cuz i do that and I'm pretty sure its legal

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Fletch1986
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Join date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4869

No. You let the bar sink into your chest and let the bar go down with your chest, then you fling your chest up to get momentum into the bar. The PL rules I've seen say that once the bar touches the chest, it cannot go any lower. A way of preventing what I called heaving.

And you couldn't bounce the bar off your chest in a competition anyway because of the rule that says that the press command is given when the bar is motionless. Basically a short pause... or a long one.

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michael_xyz
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Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 246

Yes I think you guys misunderstood (or I phrased it badly).

I mean accumulation phase ASSISTANCE work. Yes, of course for the main lifts you can use barbell but as you said using DBs etc. for the assistance work.

For upper body that's rather easy and I do it quite often anyway as I like DBs for upper body. For lower body though not really sure. Wondering how you guys go about it. Right now I'm doing mainly machine work. I know leg curls and leg presses and leg extensions aren't revolutionary but at times I think Ed Coan and Kirk Karwoski and many other greats got very strong doing simple things like that too. (Godly genetics aside)

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Joweeee
Level 3

Join date: Feb 2009
Posts: 590

StormTheBeach wrote:
Thanks buddy. I just wish I had someone to at least point me in the right direction with this shit. It's taken about 10 years of reading and a trip up to Westside to figure out the stuff I know now. haha. I am more than happy to help. What's the point of knowing all of this shit if I'm not going to try to help other people with it? You know?



How old are you? I can't figure it out, lol. You seem pretty young but also seem like you've been doing this quite a while.

I'm reading through this entire thread and it's really clarifying some details that are pretty hard to understand in Book of Methods. Louie also seems to contradict himself some in it, but I realize that is because there is so little held in concrete. Plus, Book of Methods seems like just a bunch of articles put together to form a book, and I doubt they were all written around the same time.

Anyway, I'm only on page 5 so gonna get back to reading... :D

Edit: Could you elaborate on your trip to Westside? Were you there for a few days? How much it cost? etc...

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StormTheBeach
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Posts: 3320

want2getlean wrote:
StormTheBeach wrote:
Unless you are planning on doing a military press competition, just stick with exercises that directly transfer to your bench press.




What hzve those been in your experience?


I'm not experienced with exercise rotation yet so I don't know what will transfer to my bench, but I'm planning on a rotation of touch n go, paused, incline and maybe paused floor press


For me, my lockout sucks. Which for me means my upper back is not staying tight enough throughout the whole movement and my triceps are too weak to finish. Stuff that helps me:

High rep DB work- Builds a ton of size on my toothpick arms.
Benching against chain with a fat bar- as this goes up, so does my competition raw bench
Floor press with a long pause- taking the stretch reflex out helps teach me to strain through heavy lifts

Tons of barbell extensions, Tons of upper back work


Pretty musch everything else I do for bench is just for variaiton but these really feel like the only things that actually transfer to a bigger bench.

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StormTheBeach
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Join date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3320

buddaboy wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
I have recently ascertained that my medium grip bench press is stronger than my wide grip bench press. My understanding is that the wide grip bench press yields bigger potential in terms of heavy weight. Does this mean my lats are weak in relation to my triceps? Or maybe this grip just suits me better? I do not 'feel' my lats are weak, I am currently working on bringing up my biceps and abs, could this be affecting the wide grip bench? More so the biceps I guess.

I am 6.2" tall so I have very long arms, I feel that whilst not perfect my technique is pretty good i.e. no bouncing or back arching, I try and imitate the technique on the WSB videos.

Any feedback appreciated.


You do realize that you want as big of an arch as possible if you're looking at moving the most weight possible.


There are some really big benchers, typically raw, that don't use much arch at all. Using a more old school style.



Sorry - when I say no arching, I mean arching as in cheating to move more weight, I should have made that clear. I do maintain a tight arch in my back, although I would not consider it a big arch and definitely not the biggest arch possible.

Thanks guys.


If arching when you bench is cheating then so is not squatting with your feet touching and sumo deadlifting.

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StormTheBeach
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Join date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3320

michael_xyz wrote:
Yes I think you guys misunderstood (or I phrased it badly).

I mean accumulation phase ASSISTANCE work. Yes, of course for the main lifts you can use barbell but as you said using DBs etc. for the assistance work.

For upper body that's rather easy and I do it quite often anyway as I like DBs for upper body. For lower body though not really sure. Wondering how you guys go about it. Right now I'm doing mainly machine work. I know leg curls and leg presses and leg extensions aren't revolutionary but at times I think Ed Coan and Kirk Karwoski and many other greats got very strong doing simple things like that too. (Godly genetics aside)


Yes, you want to keep assistance work very general during the accumulation block. This is something that is tough for me because I only have barbells to work with. Ideally, you wouldn't use babrbells at all AFTER your speed work or ME work but I have found that just doing super high reps (50+) seems to work just fine as well.

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StormTheBeach
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Posts: 3320

Joweeee wrote:
StormTheBeach wrote:
Thanks buddy. I just wish I had someone to at least point me in the right direction with this shit. It's taken about 10 years of reading and a trip up to Westside to figure out the stuff I know now. haha. I am more than happy to help. What's the point of knowing all of this shit if I'm not going to try to help other people with it? You know?



How old are you? I can't figure it out, lol. You seem pretty young but also seem like you've been doing this quite a while.

I'm reading through this entire thread and it's really clarifying some details that are pretty hard to understand in Book of Methods. Louie also seems to contradict himself some in it, but I realize that is because there is so little held in concrete. Plus, Book of Methods seems like just a bunch of articles put together to form a book, and I doubt they were all written around the same time.

Anyway, I'm only on page 5 so gonna get back to reading... :D

Edit: Could you elaborate on your trip to Westside? Were you there for a few days? How much it cost? etc...


I'm 27. I have only been training for powerlifting for a little over 4 years. I started training for high school sports when I was 13, was lucky enough to have a football coach in high school that knew what the hell he was doing, and I bought my first couple 'recreational' textbooks right after high school football was over. They were Nutrient Timing, Power Eating, and the Bigger Faster Strong program.

I sucked at football. I knew to play in college, I had to be stronger and faster. So, I knew I had to start getting smarter.

This led to me majoring in exercise science, getting a billion worthless certifications, and getting a semi-worhtless master's degree. But, while I was wasting all my time with that bullshit, I was training consistantly and learning a lot on my own.


The only certification I have that doesn't suck is the Westside Cert. My trip to Westside was for their first certification seminar. I found a cheap hotel and stayed an extra day so that I could train. I was only there for 4 days, got to train twice, got to talk to pretty much everybody there, and learned a ton of shit. Louie said my bench sucked and I needed to come back and he could help make it suck less. I really need to go back. haha.

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LiquidMercury
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3238

I've been meaning to make a trip up there sometime, next time you go STB let me know. I've got a few places to stay in Columbus too to minimize the cost a bit.

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buddaboy
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Join date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2191

StormTheBeach wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
I have recently ascertained that my medium grip bench press is stronger than my wide grip bench press. My understanding is that the wide grip bench press yields bigger potential in terms of heavy weight. Does this mean my lats are weak in relation to my triceps? Or maybe this grip just suits me better? I do not 'feel' my lats are weak, I am currently working on bringing up my biceps and abs, could this be affecting the wide grip bench? More so the biceps I guess.

I am 6.2" tall so I have very long arms, I feel that whilst not perfect my technique is pretty good i.e. no bouncing or back arching, I try and imitate the technique on the WSB videos.

Any feedback appreciated.


You do realize that you want as big of an arch as possible if you're looking at moving the most weight possible.


There are some really big benchers, typically raw, that don't use much arch at all. Using a more old school style.



Sorry - when I say no arching, I mean arching as in cheating to move more weight, I should have made that clear. I do maintain a tight arch in my back, although I would not consider it a big arch and definitely not the biggest arch possible.

Thanks guys.


If arching when you bench is cheating then so is not squatting with your feet touching and sumo deadlifting.


I failed to make myself clear again: I meant arching when the hips lift up, my understanding is this is cheating? Powerlifting style technique is new to me; I try and emulate the technique in the videos and keep and maintain a tight arch, but do not arch as much as they do, I arch no more than I feel comfortable with. Also, there is no bounce and I try and keep the elbows tucked in and the forearms horizontal.

At the risk of repetition (excuse the pun), can anyone suggest what there the weakness may lie in technique or strength in a particular area if I can shoulder width bench press more than I can wide grip bench press? (I have long arms at 6.2" and keep my little fingers just inside of the rings on the bench when I wide grip bench press). Any help appreciated, thanks in advance.

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StormTheBeach
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Join date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3320

buddaboy wrote:
StormTheBeach wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
Fletch1986 wrote:
LiquidMercury wrote:
buddaboy wrote:
I have recently ascertained that my medium grip bench press is stronger than my wide grip bench press. My understanding is that the wide grip bench press yields bigger potential in terms of heavy weight. Does this mean my lats are weak in relation to my triceps? Or maybe this grip just suits me better? I do not 'feel' my lats are weak, I am currently working on bringing up my biceps and abs, could this be affecting the wide grip bench? More so the biceps I guess.

I am 6.2" tall so I have very long arms, I feel that whilst not perfect my technique is pretty good i.e. no bouncing or back arching, I try and imitate the technique on the WSB videos.

Any feedback appreciated.


You do realize that you want as big of an arch as possible if you're looking at moving the most weight possible.


There are some really big benchers, typically raw, that don't use much arch at all. Using a more old school style.



Sorry - when I say no arching, I mean arching as in cheating to move more weight, I should have made that clear. I do maintain a tight arch in my back, although I would not consider it a big arch and definitely not the biggest arch possible.

Thanks guys.


If arching when you bench is cheating then so is not squatting with your feet touching and sumo deadlifting.


I failed to make myself clear again: I meant arching when the hips lift up, my understanding is this is cheating? Powerlifting style technique is new to me; I try and emulate the technique in the videos and keep and maintain a tight arch, but do not arch as much as they do, I arch no more than I feel comfortable with. Also, there is no bounce and I try and keep the elbows tucked in and the forearms horizontal.

At the risk of repetition (excuse the pun), can anyone suggest what there the weakness may lie in technique or strength in a particular area if I can shoulder width bench press more than I can wide grip bench press? (I have long arms at 6.2" and keep my little fingers just inside of the rings on the bench when I wide grip bench press). Any help appreciated, thanks in advance.


I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. I have recently noticed the same thing. My medium grip, pinky on the rings, is stronger than my competition grip, indexes on rings. I think this is due to my tricpes getting a lot stronger and surpassing my chest strength. My arms are very long and I am 6'2'' as well. I have seen a lot of long armed guys (with strong raw bench numbers) taking a narrower grip and never really understood why until my triceps started getting stronger. Check out how Konstantine Konstanta-whatever benches and try to mimic that. He has a similar body type and uses that hand position.

Just train with lots of different grips and use your strongest in the meet.

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buddaboy
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Posts: 2191

Thanks STB. I don't feel my lats are weak - relative to the rest of me - and I automatically assumed I should be moving the most weight with a

wide grip. I have been doing a lot of triceps work lately and hopefully this is an indication that it is paying off!

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michael_xyz
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Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 246

I was hoping I could get some feedback on the amount of volume/exercises etc. I'm doing. I've read/watched some Louie Simmons stuff and he says a lot of the times to only train for an hour then leave. I have never been able to do this though. All my workouts take 1.5-2 hours and I'm not sure whether that's good as I'm more of a beginner and need more work or the opposite is true and I need less work and more rest.

For example, here's my DE Bench yesterday:

Incline Plyo Pushups

Bench
15x3

Incline DB Press
1x12, 2x9
dropped weight - 2x10

Barbell T-Bar Row
3x12

Machine Row
3x10

Cable Extensions
1x15, 1x9, 1x7

EZ Curls
2x8, 1x7



It doesn't look like "too much" to me and it took me 1.5 hours from start of DE Bench work sets to the end - although longer if you count plyo pushups, warming up and then afterwards some prehab stuff.

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Chigishev
Level 3

Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 94

Hey STB was pointed to this thread by mercury. Just started reading got a long way to go but lots of really good info in here so thanks.

Just wanted to get your opinion on two things...

1) I currently bench with my index close to the smooth, do you think it needs to moved out to Bench bigger weights, I am weaker in the wider bench but I reckon theres probaly a best of both worlds that I havent found yet.

2) With the max effort work I had always worked up to a 1rm and changed exercise every two weeks. Some of the thread that I have read suggests you could do 3rm-5rm. Do you think this is more advantageous? I think it would help get more heavy quality reps in the weakest positions.

thanks again for starting this thread and passing on the knowledge!

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LiquidMercury
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3238

Chigishev wrote:
Hey STB was pointed to this thread by mercury. Just started reading got a long way to go but lots of really good info in here so thanks.

Just wanted to get your opinion on two things...

1) I currently bench with my index close to the smooth, do you think it needs to moved out to Bench bigger weights, I am weaker in the wider bench but I reckon theres probaly a best of both worlds that I havent found yet.

2) With the max effort work I had always worked up to a 1rm and changed exercise every two weeks. Some of the thread that I have read suggests you could do 3rm-5rm. Do you think this is more advantageous? I think it would help get more heavy quality reps in the weakest positions.

thanks again for starting this thread and passing on the knowledge!


1. Move it out, but move it out over time. I moved my bench out a finger span every month until I got it where it is now - index fingers on the outside power rings. I wasn't able to bench as much right away but now have much greater success in my bench after being stalled for quite some time.

2. Do 3rm-5rm during the accumulation phases, 1rm/3rm (depending if you feel good or not) during intensification phase. There's a time and place for things, know when to use what.

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Chigishev
Level 3

Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 94

cheers, I have definately fallen into maxing out 1RM every week which is not clever every week. Like you said I need to learn when to use this. Also had no idea about the accumulation and intensification phases until reading this thread, so very interesting info for me.

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