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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
Posts: 17

Hi, Im 16 years old and looking to change my body by putting on strength and size. Im new to the forums and to weightlifting in general so please tolerate my noobness :L

Im 121 pounds at the moment, and my goal is to have a great looking physique, whilst having a great deal of functional strength also.
Now, iv'e been doing a great deal of research recently about the different types of hypertrophy. Now I could be completly wrong about all this, but its the general gyst of what iv'e been reading so correct me if i'm wrong.

"Miofibrillar" hypertrophy, thats triggered with low reps (1-5 usually) and heavier weight, That actually causes the miofribril muscle fibres to grow, building actuall hard, dense muscle, and growth of the actuall muscle tissue. This is the one apparently you guys, the powerlifters would utilize

AND

"Sarcoplasmic" hypertrophy, The one bodybuilders favor, using more reps (typically 8-12) and a lower weight. In short the muscle tissue becomes filled with sarcoplasm fluid causing the muscle to appear larger.

Until I founds this information, I was set on doing a bodybuilding routine, with some low rep sets aswell to build strength, Thinking that my muscles were getting bigger because the muscle fibres were growing. As soon as I found out how superfitial sarcoplasmic hypertrophy was, and that infact miofibrillar hypertrophy was what was going to give me that dense hard look im looking for and the actuall growth of the muscle. I was put off BodyBuilding.

This new information really threw a spanner in the works, and now I have a real dilema.

The sort of body i'd like to build is one that not only looks great, but actually has the strength to match its powerful looking muscles. The muscles look hard and dense.
The olympic gymnasts have very powerful looking bodys iv'e noticed too, and you powerlifters have that dense and hard look aswell which is why im asking you guys.

I guess the main question is, will I build the body I want with low reps? The gymnasts seem to have done it, and they only use low reps and their own body weight, and so have the people who train for strength, so I just wanted your opinion seen as you've been there and have experience.
I really want to be strong AND have the body to show for it.

So can I build a great body with low reps if I train hard and eat right?

Be really greatful for any advice you can give me.

Thanks

-Linden

Theres a pic iv'e attached of a male gymnast, Id like a body like these guys one day.

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asooneyeonig
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Join date: Jun 2011
Posts: 612

you could try one of the many 5x5 programs or do 5/3/1.

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cavalier
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Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3327

I'm currently getting training by guys who used to be at Westside, they're putting me through a powerlifting routine. It's high reps (15-20), low reps (triples, doubles), medium reps (everything else). A bit of everything.

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Zerpp
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Join date: Nov 2011
Posts: 265

You're overthinking. Follow what you're being told by your coaches and keep going until they stop or say otherwise. Tell them what you want and where you'd like to be and hopefully they'll steer you in that direction.

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Aragorn
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Join date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9430

Ok well, first off I want to say that I like the thoughtfulness you put into your approach. That is mature and will serve you well as one of the cornerstones to long term success for strength and physique changes is educating yourself and actually doing research (real research, not reading supplement advertisements disguised as "research finding") WHILE you work hard in,the gym.

The down side to this is that you can fall into the trap of not doing anything at all while you read. You are 121 lbs. ANYTHING will work for you at the moment as long as it involves food and weights.

What you need to realize is that at this point anything--absolutely ANY kind of weight training--is bringing you closer to your goal than sitting, not doing anything, and reading. This is almost always the case for the first 3 years of anyones training "life".

I have more thoughts, but at work right now, so I will try to post more later. You need two thinhs at this point--food, and weights. In that order too.

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Aragorn
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The otherbig thing you need to realize is that powerlifters and strongmen look the way they do because of how they eat. If they ate more like bodybuilders (i.e. More attention to clean weight gain), they would look similar to bodybuilders. In fact the ones that DO watch what they eat do look lean. And big. It so happens that most of the heavyweights don't care so much and as a result will eat anything that helps them keep their bodyweight up.

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maraudersfball
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Join date: Jun 2011
Posts: 164

i agree with aragorns points, you simply need to train hard and eat, it doesn't matter what you choose at the moment.

also...


"

"Miofibrillar" hypertrophy, thats triggered with low reps (1-5 usually) and heavier weight, That actually causes the miofribril muscle fibres to grow, building actuall hard, dense muscle, and growth of the actuall muscle tissue. This is the one apparently you guys, the powerlifters would utilize

AND

"Sarcoplasmic" hypertrophy, The one bodybuilders favor, using more reps (typically 8-12) and a lower weight. In short the muscle tissue becomes filled with sarcoplasm fluid causing the muscle to appear larger.

"

this paints to 'black and white', of a picture, the human body never really works that way. both types of hypertrophy are happening any time you are trying to make your muscles grow. higher rep training may favour sarcoplasmic hyp., and lower rep training may favour miofribillar hyp. but the both types are functioning to cause the muscles to grow.

Also, you seem to think that sar. hyp. is useless, but as you stated, body builders favour this type of hyp., but seriously, look at a couple body builders, does that muscle look fake or not dense? anything that causes fluids to be rushed to the muscles causes sar. hy. which is basically swelling of the muscle tissue. Heavy, fatiguing weight lifting, whether it is high or low rep, causes the muscle cells to swell a lot, which is the pumped feeling you get when lifting weights. This swell can cause the muscle fibres to permanently stretch and strengthen because of how much intra-cellurlar pressure is created. AKA causes your muscles to grow.

The key word was permanently. "This swell can cause the muscle fibres to permanently stretch and strengthen because of how much intra-cellurlar pressure is created." Even though the pump will fade away that doesn't meant it didn't leave permanent growth behind.

And.. sar. hyp. brings a lot of nutrients to the muscle cells which will be needed if you want any mio. hyp. to happen. building muscle is very costly, metabolically, and you pay for it in the nutrients you provide your body. these nutrients travel around your body in the blood stream, IF there is a rush of blood to a certain muscle group, then more nutrients will be provided to that muscle group.


you should read this article, http://www.T-Nation.com/...to_build_muscle , it is on the home page, from two days ago. it may be able to answer a lot of questions you might have about how different rep ranges are use full no matter what your goal is.

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
Posts: 17

[
this paints to 'black and white', of a picture, the human body never really works that way. both types of hypertrophy are happening any time you are trying to make your muscles grow. higher rep training may favour sarcoplasmic hyp., and lower rep training may favour miofribillar hyp. but the both types are functioning to cause the muscles to grow.

Right, so whatever training I do, both levels of hypertrophy is going to occur, Not as black and white as I thought then.

Also, you seem to think that sar. hyp. is useless, but as you stated, body builders favour this type of hyp., but seriously, look at a couple body builders, does that muscle look fake or not dense? anything that causes fluids to be rushed to the muscles causes sar. hy. which is basically swelling of the muscle tissue. Heavy, fatiguing weight lifting, whether it is high or low rep, causes the muscle cells to swell a lot, which is the pumped feeling you get when lifting weights. This swell can cause the muscle fibres to permanently stretch and strengthen because of how much intra-cellurlar pressure is created. AKA causes your muscles to grow.

The key word was permanently. "This swell can cause the muscle fibres to permanently stretch and strengthen because of how much intra-cellurlar pressure is created." Even though the pump will fade away that doesn't meant it didn't leave permanent growth behind.

Right, so is important to utilize both then. What your saying then is that sarcoplasmic hypertrophy has a permanent effect to it? didn't quite understand.

Thanks so much for the help, really interesting advice, made me understand everything allot better :)

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
Posts: 17

Aragorn wrote:
The otherbig thing you need to realize is that powerlifters and strongmen look the way they do because of how they eat. If they ate more like bodybuilders (i.e. More attention to clean weight gain), they would look similar to bodybuilders. In fact the ones that DO watch what they eat do look lean. And big. It so happens that most of the heavyweights don't care so much and as a result will eat anything that helps them keep their bodyweight up.


Right Id always wondered why that was,

So do you think i'd be best with something like starting strength? It seems the best starting point, and that way I wont be overthinking things because its pretty simple.

Thanks for taking your time to help me, really appreciate it.

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
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Zerpp wrote:
You're overthinking. Follow what you're being told by your coaches and keep going until they stop or say otherwise. Tell them what you want and where you'd like to be and hopefully they'll steer you in that direction.


Yeah thanks, you and the others have made me understand how much im overthinking this :L

Thanks :)

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
Posts: 17

First off I'd like to thank you all for your help, Its steered me in the right direction. Im thinking of doing either starting strength. or a 5x5 type program like asooneyeonig mentioned. Going by your advice, either of them are going to work at this stage.

From what iv'e been reading from your comments, the two types of hyp are not that disimilar, and that both types of hyp will be triggered to some degree anyway, what ever rep scheme.
You say that sarcoplasmic hypertrophy also has its functions and isnt as useless as I thought.

So basically, I should just start, and not worry about all this stuff.

Now I have a question about diet, You all seem to think eating is more important that anything, so I need to make sure its in check.

I think my calorie surplus is 3000 calories. Now I did that with various online calculators, and im skeptical it might have got it wrong so in your opinions does this seem the right amount?

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bulldog9899
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Join date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4441

It seems that your goals are to resemble a gymnast along with having the strength that they display. Why waste time and mental energy? Why not simply train like a gymnast and become one? Lets be honest gymnast dont train to look a certain way, its a by product of what they do for their sport. That goes for most high level serious athletes. I dont understand why people come on line and ask questions like " how do I train to LOOK like a MMA fighter?"

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black_angus1
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I have a hard time believing English is your first language.

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bulldog9899
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Posts: 4441

^^ Well excuse me, for my shit writing skills , pretty sure anyone whom has read my post in the past are aware of it. Matter of fact I admit to it. Seriously, im not Trolling the kid or putting him down before you come riding in on your white horse. Reading between the lines,the kid comes across that he admires gymnast. So why should he train like a Pl or BB and not just train like a gymnast? Guys are giving him advice based on their own bias on training.

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
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bulldog9899 wrote:
It seems that your goals are to resemble a gymnast along with having the strength that they display. Why waste time and mental energy? Why not simply train like a gymnast and become one? Lets be honest gymnast dont train to look a certain way, its a by product of what they do for their sport. That goes for most high level serious athletes. I dont understand why people come on line and ask questions like " how do I train to LOOK like a MMA fighter?"


Well to be honest, I cant find any substantial information on how to train like a gymnast, My point was that they train in the lower rep range, so I thought I might be able to replicate that with weight training. The weight training would make me strong too which was the other main thing I was looking for.

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Aragorn
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Join date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9430

LindenGarcia18 wrote:
bulldog9899 wrote:
It seems that your goals are to resemble a gymnast along with having the strength that they display. Why waste time and mental energy? Why not simply train like a gymnast and become one? Lets be honest gymnast dont train to look a certain way, its a by product of what they do for their sport. That goes for most high level serious athletes. I dont understand why people come on line and ask questions like " how do I train to LOOK like a MMA fighter?"


Well to be honest, I cant find any substantial information on how to train like a gymnast, My point was that they train in the lower rep range, so I thought I might be able to replicate that with weight training. The weight training would make me strong too which was the other main thing I was looking for.



Well, gymnasts train to be acrobats....If you want to train like a gymnast I would suggest finding a gymnastics place. Personally I believe that the volume and time that goes into training that way makes it counterproductive to reap the same benefits they do as World Class gymnasts. Once you get to the point where it is your job, or you are spending upwards of 25-30 hours a week on it, their results become much less impressive on a strictly aesthetic level (they are still extremely awesome athletes and I love watching them).

For 98% of people, weight training with a goal of strength will get you results without spending 30+ hours a week. Weight training will indeed make you strong and athletic.

Your first stop is to do a 5x5 routine. I do not like starting strength much. I would prefer if you actually did something like Westside for Skinny Bastards part 2 or 3...but depending on your abilities it may not be a great first idea when you need to just focus on form and how to do things.

I'd still recommend it though. I like it better than 5x5 personally. And I like 5x5 better than Starting Strength. Main point is, I don't care what you pick, just pick a program at random and start already! Too much bloody talking not enough damned working! You don't get muscles by posting on forums. Reply back with what you have done already (past tense, not "what I am going to do")

Look up Defranco's Agile 8 for a warm-up, and do it before weight training. And look up "dan john teaches goblet squats" and "wall squats" for appropriate self teaching on how to squat properly. Same technique from those carries over to front and back squats with a barbell.

And for all that is good and holy, EAT SOMETHING! You are extremely underweight at 121 lbs and 16 years old. Reply back with a list of everything you have eaten in the past 3 days.

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black_angus1
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Join date: May 2009
Posts: 836

bulldog9899 wrote:
^^ Well excuse me, for my shit writing skills , pretty sure anyone whom has read my post in the past are aware of it. Matter of fact I admit to it. Seriously, im not Trolling the kid or putting him down before you come riding in on your white horse. Reading between the lines,the kid comes across that he admires gymnast. So why should he train like a Pl or BB and not just train like a gymnast? Guys are giving him advice based on their own bias on training.



I was talking in reference to OP. y u mad tho?

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black_angus1
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Join date: May 2009
Posts: 836

Aragorn wrote:]

Main point is, I don't care what you pick, just pick a program at random and start already! Too much bloody talking not enough damned working! You don't get muscles by posting on forums. Reply back with what you have done already (past tense, not "what I am going to do")


this x1000

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
Posts: 17

Aragorn wrote:
LindenGarcia18 wrote:
bulldog9899 wrote:
It seems that your goals are to resemble a gymnast along with having the strength that they display. Why waste time and mental energy? Why not simply train like a gymnast and become one? Lets be honest gymnast dont train to look a certain way, its a by product of what they do for their sport. That goes for most high level serious athletes. I dont understand why people come on line and ask questions like " how do I train to LOOK like a MMA fighter?"


Well to be honest, I cant find any substantial information on how to train like a gymnast, My point was that they train in the lower rep range, so I thought I might be able to replicate that with weight training. The weight training would make me strong too which was the other main thing I was looking for.



Well, gymnasts train to be acrobats....If you want to train like a gymnast I would suggest finding a gymnastics place. Personally I believe that the volume and time that goes into training that way makes it counterproductive to reap the same benefits they do as World Class gymnasts. Once you get to the point where it is your job, or you are spending upwards of 25-30 hours a week on it, their results become much less impressive on a strictly aesthetic level (they are still extremely awesome athletes and I love watching them).

For 98% of people, weight training with a goal of strength will get you results without spending 30+ hours a week. Weight training will indeed make you strong and athletic.

Your first stop is to do a 5x5 routine. I do not like starting strength much. I would prefer if you actually did something like Westside for Skinny Bastards part 2 or 3...but depending on your abilities it may not be a great first idea when you need to just focus on form and how to do things.

I'd still recommend it though. I like it better than 5x5 personally. And I like 5x5 better than Starting Strength. Main point is, I don't care what you pick, just pick a program at random and start already! Too much bloody talking not enough damned working! You don't get muscles by posting on forums. Reply back with what you have done already (past tense, not "what I am going to do")

Look up Defranco's Agile 8 for a warm-up, and do it before weight training. And look up "dan john teaches goblet squats" and "wall squats" for appropriate self teaching on how to squat properly. Same technique from those carries over to front and back squats with a barbell.

And for all that is good and holy, EAT SOMETHING! You are extremely underweight at 121 lbs and 16 years old. Reply back with a list of everything you have eaten in the past 3 days.



Orite, So iv'e been setting up my gym equipment at the moment ready for when I finally start training properly on monday. I've got a home gym type thing set up in my bedroom with all the pulleys and pressing type things you find in the gym. I have set up a pull up bar on my door, and un-boxed my new 120 kg Olympic dumbbell set, thats what iv'e done since, as I said with the intention to start training properly on Monday. Iv'e been having just 3 square meals a day at the moment. Scrambled egg and porridge for breakfast, rice and chicken for lunch, and I had like a vegetable source type thing with some fish at dinner.

I found out my calorie surplus though which is 3000 cals a day, I found a teens bulking diet that consists of 3000 calories on bb.com that im gunna use.
Ill check out westside, iv'e heard its good.
Am I really underweight though? My BMI says im ideal weight for my age and so did my doctor. I mean I dont look skinny, people in the changing rooms at school look the same as me, I just thought it was an average physique for my age.

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
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Aragon, dont know if you got my replie last night, said it has to be approved by the modertor and hasnt appeared yet, but im starting tommorow.
I have a calorie surplus of 3000 calories, and have a diet that reachs that. All good food too, complex carbs and protein, 6-7 meals a day including pre and post workout.
Im going to do a basic 5x5 because its simple.

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LindenGarcia18
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black_angus1 wrote:
bulldog9899 wrote:
^^ Well excuse me, for my shit writing skills , pretty sure anyone whom has read my post in the past are aware of it. Matter of fact I admit to it. Seriously, im not Trolling the kid or putting him down before you come riding in on your white horse. Reading between the lines,the kid comes across that he admires gymnast. So why should he train like a Pl or BB and not just train like a gymnast? Guys are giving him advice based on their own bias on training.



I was talking in reference to OP. y u mad tho?



Whats wrong with my English...

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Aragorn
Level 10

Join date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9430

LindenGarcia18 wrote:
Aragon, dont know if you got my replie last night, said it has to be approved by the modertor and hasnt appeared yet, but im starting tommorow.
I have a calorie surplus of 3000 calories, and have a diet that reachs that. All good food too, complex carbs and protein, 6-7 meals a day including pre and post workout.
Im going to do a basic 5x5 because its simple.


I did. Basic 5x5 is a great start, highly recommended. The first couple weeks you will be extremely sore. That is normal and will go away. When I first started I did what I thought was a "good" arm workout. The next day I couldn't move my arms. They stayed immobile for like 3 days and sore for a week. After a couple weeks they were just "normal" sore. So be prepared for that lol.

3000 calories is a good place to start for a growing teen. Make sure the diet is getting you all your nutrients, veggies, etc. Also chances are that you will be suffering significantly from this as well. When I started I literally had to force myself to eat and almost got sick a number of times (don't ACTUALLY eat til you throw up, that's bad obviously). It was bad, I hated eating big breakfasts and was full all the time. *THIS IS NORMAL.

Eating was more of a pain in the butt and more suffering than training. It was a chore. However, once again, after a month and change, I got used to it and then started getting HUNGRY for breakfast. Don't eat garbage, don't eat junk food. But the fact of the matter is that there will be many times where eating is a chore. This is the cost of gaining muscle. Ask most people who have gotten significantly large and strong and they will all relate times they felt like they hated eating. You shouldn't feel that way permanently, but there will be periods of time, even weeks, where you do. This is mostly true for the population of people who have been skinny their whole life and also have a hard time eating breakfast, etc. So, people mostly like you and myself.

As far as your BMI goes, it depends on your height, which you didn't list so I could be mistaken... But it also depends on the population of people you are around as to whether it is "strange"...for instance, an overweight kid could be the same as everybody else in his locker room and "normal", but still grossly overweight. Same thing with being skinny or underweight. BMI is an extremely flawed system and the analysis of that metric would take much more time that I care to go into. For instance, a 225 lb, 6 foot tall adult male with 7% body fat is "obese" according to the BMI, even though he looks like a damn brickhouse with abs. That's complete bullshit.

It is old. Old old old. Outdated and ignores a lot of other factors relevant. Based on my educated wild guess you're probably about 5 foot 8 inchs...and you have the best muscle growing years of your life ahead of you.

Just stick with it.

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Aragorn
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Join date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9430

You don't need a fancy diet, just as long as it is healthy, plenty of protein and veggies and adds up to 3000 calories. Don't get overly complicated here, just make sure you eat healthy real food with protein at every meal and the numbers add up to 3000.

Other thing is that you didn't say whether you had a barbell or not. Or a place to do squats. If you don't have a barbell, do squats with a dumbbell--look up "dan john goblet squat" and watch the video of him teaching it. He is one of the great coaches in the business today and can make things simple and straightforward. He also is a great athlete in his own day, even though he may not look like it. So listen.

i suggest doing goblet squats with light weight and really practicing the technique. Trust me, it's much better to walk before trying to run in terms of heavy weight...besides, taking the time now to learn properly and MEMORIZE it til it is second nature is going to pay of 10 fold in the future and accelerate your gains in future years.

Do not, I repeat do NOT ignore the value of proper technique. Don't wait until you have injury or tendonitis bothering you to relearn. In fact, it takes so much damn time to unlearn bad habits just don't learn them in the first place :). A properly done goblet squat is picture perfect technique whether you're holding the dumbbell like dan john says, or whether you have a barbell on your back or held in the crook of your elbows (called a Zercher squat). Same fundamentals, different place holding the weights.

Actually at this point I do not think you will be strong enough to need more than the dumbbell for challenging squats. So start slow, do it right. Watch Dan John's video, take it to heart.

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LindenGarcia18
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Join date: Jan 2013
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Orite so iv'e taken all your advice on board, and im well into things now. I've been doing pretty well with the food actually and I didn't think I would. 3000 calories isn't all that bad, thought it would be torture. As I said im on a 5x5 but I cant seem to find out the right weight to use so that I cant do anymore than 5 reps? I seem to fall short each time like I can only do 4, or go higher than 5 and do six, any advice on that?

p.s I checked out the goblet squat guy, thanks for telling me about him, helped allot. Im also doing bulgarian split squats, they hit my legs really hard.

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LindenGarcia18
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broken message

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