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Benefits of ATG Squats??
 

Massif
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Join date: Jan 2005
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Vwaju92 wrote:
Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most "natural" form of squatting?

-MAtt

I spent thirteen months in Korea. I saw little old men playing chess on the sidewalk sqatting down, no chairs or table. No wraps or suits, all natural, completely RAW, they were ass to ground 100%. Little old ladies cutting up fish for their stalls on the sidewalk, again squatting down, ass to heels all the way, not parallel. Oh it was sanitary, they always put bits of newspaper down on the sidewalk to cut up the fish or whatever. I figure if people at work or at play assume that position naturally it must be the correct one, right?


So it's natural for poor people?

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mrl179
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also...this might be alittle sick but when i was little in bosnia, i remember playing outside miles away from my house. Anyway some days i would have alot of chocolate to eat and at times i would get a rumble in my stomach. I would squat ASS TO HEALS to were the grass would almost be tickling my butt...anway enough detail, i would then take a hughe dump in the midle of a medow. There just does to show you some natural movements.

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Matt McG
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mrl179 wrote:
also...this might be alittle sick but when i was little in bosnia, i remember playing outside miles away from my house. Anyway some days i would have alot of chocolate to eat and at times i would get a rumble in my stomach. I would squat ASS TO HEALS to were the grass would almost be tickling my butt...anway enough detail, i would then take a hughe dump in the midle of a medow. There just does to show you some natural movements.


I believe you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's unnatural to squat ass to grass. I do it frequently, when I'm in the gym and and writing in my workout journal, resting when there are no seats and the floor is disgusting, etc.

I'm talking about squatting ass to grass bearing SIGNIFICANT LOAD (relatively of course). When have you ever done this in real life?

If you have to move something and you can squat under it easily, you will. If it's too low you'll do a deadlift type movement with it. You don't squat ass to heels to move a couch.

And, I'm not against ATG squats, I do them a bit in my training. But the argument of it being more "natural" just seems like a heap of bullshit to me. I've been waiting for my argument to be refuted, but if it's not, maybe we should chalk up ATG squatting as "more natural" under the myth section.

-MAtt

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pparris
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Well, it is necessary to cause microtrauma (small tears in a muscle) in a muscle for it to regrow larger.

No, I don't think so. Muscles grow because the myofibrils thicken and increase in response to high-tension. Micro tears are bad and should be avoided.

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Matt McG
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pparris wrote:
Well, it is necessary to cause microtrauma (small tears in a muscle) in a muscle for it to regrow larger.

No, I don't think so. Muscles grow because the myofibrils thicken and increase in response to high-tension. Micro tears are bad and should be avoided.


But the muscle still does break down before it rebuilds bigger. No?

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swivel
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Matgic wrote:


...I'm talking about squatting ass to grass bearing SIGNIFICANT LOAD (relatively of course). When have you ever done this in real life?

If you have to move something and you can squat under it easily, you will. If it's too low you'll do a deadlift type movement with it. You don't squat ass to heels to move a couch.

And, I'm not against ATG squats, I do them a bit in my training. But the argument of it being more "natural" just seems like a heap of bullshit to me. I've been waiting for my argument to be refuted, but if it's not, maybe we should chalk up ATG squatting as "more natural" under the myth section.

-MAtt




i often pick up 3 or 4 cases of wine off the floor. depending on how they're packaged a case weighs 35-60 lbs., an average 4 stack will be 4 1/2 ft. high.

not huge weight but definitely significant and not that easy too get off the floor with your fingertips, maintain balance, and carry without breaking something. especially when you figure the stack is over your head, which is turned sideways so you have to walk sideways to see where you're going. they got the name for that movie from me btw.

i don't know if it's "natural" or not but pistols and squatting atg have been helpful for me there i'm sure.

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Matt McG
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swivel wrote:
Matgic wrote:


...I'm talking about squatting ass to grass bearing SIGNIFICANT LOAD (relatively of course). When have you ever done this in real life?

If you have to move something and you can squat under it easily, you will. If it's too low you'll do a deadlift type movement with it. You don't squat ass to heels to move a couch.

And, I'm not against ATG squats, I do them a bit in my training. But the argument of it being more "natural" just seems like a heap of bullshit to me. I've been waiting for my argument to be refuted, but if it's not, maybe we should chalk up ATG squatting as "more natural" under the myth section.

-MAtt



i often pick up 3 or 4 cases of wine off the floor. depending on how they're packaged a case weighs 35-60 lbs., an average 4 stack will be 4 1/2 ft. high.

not huge weight but definitely significant and not that easy too get off the floor with your fingertips, maintain balance, and carry without breaking something. especially when you figure the stack is over your head, which is turned sideways so you have to walk sideways to see where you're going. they got the name for that movie from me btw.

i don't know if it's "natural" or not but pistols and squatting atg have been helpful for me there i'm sure.



Fair enough. Although, I still do not see circumstances requring ATG squatting with significant loads appearing more frequently than when more "efficient" ways of picking up objects are used.

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Adamsson
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Lifting things without a car, a jack or similar tools.. ;)

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on edge
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pparris wrote:
Micro tears are bad and should be avoided.


THANKYOU! Finally someone else. I was feeling pretty lonely on my little island.

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on edge
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I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it's safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I've come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let's just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.

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blue9steel
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kellyc wrote:
I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it's safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I've come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let's just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.



For me I see two advantages:

1) Really hard to cheat, lot's of people who say they go to parallel go higher as the weights go up.
2) Less knee stress. This is pure opinion, but I think mid squat reversal places more torsional stress on the structure of the knee joint. For me, it feels better if I go all the way down, "in the groove" so to speak.

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mrl179
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did u read that little article i posted...basically it is the most natural movement...you go down and up, when u do this you are creating more power.

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Matt McG
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kellyc wrote:
I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it's safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I've come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let's just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.


I agree with you...there are pros and cons to both ways of squatting. But saying that squatting to the ground with weights is more natural is what I'm arguing.

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Matt McG
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blue9steel wrote:
kellyc wrote:
I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it's safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I've come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let's just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.


For me I see two advantages:

1) Really hard to cheat, lot's of people who say they go to parallel go higher as the weights go up.
2) Less knee stress. This is pure opinion, but I think mid squat reversal places more torsional stress on the structure of the knee joint. For me, it feels better if I go all the way down, "in the groove" so to speak.


1)Well, it depends on how you define cheating. If you think using momentum is cheating, then I see people cheat a lot in ATG squatting. They almost entirely use the action of stretch reflex to bounce "out of the hole." Also, don't cheat. I know it sounds simple but have someone watch your depth if your worried. That, or do box squats onto a height that leaves you at parallel. No cheating there.

2)I appreciate that you state that this is your opinion. The given is that you will be using less weight on your ATG versus parallel squat. So that would equate to less load placed on the entire body including the joints.

But, in doing box squats, the shins and knees barely go past perpendicular to the floor if you are sitting back enough. This heavily loads the muscles used in the squat with minimal stress on the knees.

But honestly, I've done more ATG free weight squatting recently than I have parallel squatting without a box. I agree that it feels more in control doing ATG squats than parallel squats with no box. But, I think a great deal of this is due to the fact that the load is less, the bounce out of the hole, and the fact that people (from what I've noticed) tend to be more likely to go closer to their 1RM while doing parallel squats rather than ATG squats.

-MAtt

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Matt McG
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mrl179 wrote:
did u read that little article i posted...basically it is the most natural movement...you go down and up, when u do this you are creating more power.


Yes, I read most of the article. But I must admit that I was weary when I saw that Arnold wrote it. Noone denies he had a great physique, but he also had amazing genetics and was not known for his squatting ability. He even says that he ended up switching to smith machine squats...this says something.

You are also assuming that I am talking about what is best for a bodybuilder. But, it depends on the goals on the individual. Super wide stance box squats will not develop the quads as fully as Ass to Grass Medium stance squats. But this is because they are a different movement. The box squat variation will develop the glutes and hamstrings more effectively. In fact, the whole body as well because of the higher loads that one would be using on the box squat versus ATG.

I think you would do well to learn that Arnold is no authority on squatting. I'm not trying to be patronizing or an asshole, but you'll find that a lot of Arnold's advice does not have much usefullness to the average trainee.

I'd really like it with John Paul Cat or another author would reply with their thoughts, although this is a long shot I'm sure.

-MAtt

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superdad4
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This is a great thread and I appreciate getting everyone's input. It seems that most of what is here is anecdotal experiences. I know that we have a lot of scholars here. Does anyone know of any research done on, say, atg squatting vs. parallel depth squats?

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Krollmonster
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Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most "natural" form of squatting?

-MAtt


I am not making a case either way, but check the squat form on a young child. They will naturally sit down on their heels.

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Matt McG
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Krollmonster wrote:
Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most "natural" form of squatting?

-MAtt

I am not making a case either way, but check the squat form on a young child. They will naturally sit down on their heels.


I understand. The post was more of a bump because it seemed that noone was responding.

And yes, if you ask a child to squat or sit down, this would be the case. But if you ask a child to move a heavy object like a couch, a table, or something else (probably not a good idea anyway haha) they will more likely do a deadlift variation or a squat to parallel or less.

But yes, for playing marbles, picking up rubber balls, and using action figures, I agree that this is more natural tha to stay suspended at parallel.

-MAtt

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hankl
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Interesting discussion, guys. I hadn't given it much outward thought, doing my own thing in my own little world and this is my first post here.

I don't have a bias for one over the other as I do both and find both equally natural. Actually I'll often do one to get reprieve from the other as they target different parts of the body.

I find ATG squats and pistols (which is also done ATG but one legged) involves a lot of knee flexion, fatiguing the muscles around the knee. When this happens in my routine, I'll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box). If this still contributes to soreness or fatigue around the knee, I'll widen the stance a lot more. With such a wide stance, it can only be done parallel anyway and will feature excessive hip flexion, also working different leg muscles.

So I move between the two styles of squat with the view of knee flexion vs hip flexion.

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hankl
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Interesting discussion, guys. I hadn't given it much outward thought, doing my own thing in my own little world and this is my first post here.

I don't have a bias for one over the other as I do both and find both equally natural. Actually I'll often do one to get reprieve from the other as they target different parts of the body.

I find ATG squats and pistols (which is also done ATG but one legged) involves a lot of knee flexion, fatiguing the muscles around the knee. When this happens in my routine, I'll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box). If this still contributes to soreness or fatigue around the knee, I'll widen the stance a lot more. With such a wide stance, it can only be done parallel anyway and will feature excessive hip flexion, also working different leg muscles.

So I move between the two styles of squat with the view of knee flexion vs hip flexion.

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superdad4
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hankl wrote:
When this happens in my routine, I'll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box)


How do you do box squats without the box?

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Dirty Tiger
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I knew a few hippy types who would rest their feet on a milk crate in front of the toilet.

It put them in an ass-2-grass squat positon for olympic caliber dump-taking.

It is supposed to be better for you intestines or your chakras or whatever.

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Matt McG
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Dirty Tiger wrote:
I knew a few hippy types who would rest their feet on a milk crate in front of the toilet.

It put them in an ass-2-grass squat positon for olympic caliber dump-taking.

It is supposed to be better for you intestines or your chakras or whatever.


From what I've heard, it's actually the original way of giving birth and it's MUCH easier on the woman. But, the men decided to change the birthing procedure by having the women laying down so they could see that was "going on." Interesting stuff, maybe true maybe not.

-MAtt

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maraudermeat
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I train both ways but find ATG squats the most beneficial in my workouts. I have trained myself to take 700lbs to the bottom and hold it for a count of 5 and then power it up. After that every other leg exercise seems easy. It has also developed a great deal of hip, glute and ham strength. pause squats ATG have given me a lot of strength in the initial pull with my sumo's. Right now I can lock out close to 700 on sumo's but becuase of the ATG pauses, I can peel almost 800 off the ground to about knee level.
my two cents
meat

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Miserere
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I'm not sure what MAtt is going on about, because whenever I'm carrying a big, heavy box of marbles or nuts and one falls on the floor, I have to squat ATG so I can pick it up with my butt cheeks.

On another note, it can be shown (which means I won't do it) that stopping the squatting movement half way down (at parallel) creates much higher shear forces than going ATG.

I have a dodgy left knee, and have had no problems or pain squatting ATG since I changed from parallel style. I am not a powerlifter, so I'm never going to squat to parallel ever again; there is no benefit in it for me.

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