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Over 35 Lifter
 
Recovering From TRT Info
1
 

pat
Level 3

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 17559

I am looking for information about this. I have no current desire to stop, but I always want to know what my options are at all times. I actually know what I'd need to do, some arimidex, HCG, maybe Clomid, finasteride, etc maybe even some TRIBEX or Alpha Male; my dr. does not. He thinks that once you start, your screwed and you can't get off. Granted he is a GP and not a Urologist, but I'd like him to know what to do if I wanted to change my ways.

What I'd really like to get my hands on is some "official" information. You know some reference-able, credible information or article(s) I could hand him to educate him, should I decide to stop for one reason or another so I am not left with tiny balls and six months of negative testosterone levels before going back to my normal small amount.
I have poked around the net and could not locate anything like about stopping it.

Thanks in advance gentlemen!

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happydog48
Level 1

Join date: Sep 2006
Posts: 528

I doubt that such a study exists. To be honest, I can't think of any logical medical reason to do such a study. The only guys who go on and off testosterone are gear-heads and no legitimate doctor is going to study steroid abusers.

TRT is not a cure for a disease, it is a treatment for a permanent condition (hypogonadism). Keyword: permanent.

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pat
Level 3

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 17559

happydog48 wrote:
I doubt that such a study exists. To be honest, I can't think of any logical medical reason to do such a study. The only guys who go on and off testosterone are gear-heads and no legitimate doctor is going to study steroid abusers.

TRT is not a cure for a disease, it is a treatment for a permanent condition (hypogonadism). Keyword: permanent.


I can. Coming off of TRT to try another treatment. Or perhaps prostate enlargement becomes a problem. I just like to have all my options open.

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happydog48
Level 1

Join date: Sep 2006
Posts: 528

I'm with you 100%, it's just that these issues don't get much study. Because of a flawed study equating higher T levels with prostate cancer, many doctors still believe that T replacement is controversial from the get-go.

It's also a question of convincing guys to participate in such a study. "You're doing fine on your TRT but we'd like to screw that up and see what happens... wanna play?"

If your HPTA is generally functioning normally, then it makes sense that a Post Cycle Therapy type regimen would apply. If your HPTA is screwed up, then you're on your own. Face it, you're pretty much on your own any way it slices.

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pat
Level 3

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 17559

happydog48 wrote:
I'm with you 100%, it's just that these issues don't get much study. Because of a flawed study equating higher T levels with prostate cancer, many doctors still believe that T replacement is controversial from the get-go.

It's also a question of convincing guys to participate in such a study. "You're doing fine on your TRT but we'd like to screw that up and see what happens... wanna play?"

If your HPTA is generally functioning normally, then it makes sense that a Post Cycle Therapy type regimen would apply. If your HPTA is screwed up, then you're on your own. Face it, you're pretty much on your own any way it slices.


Yes I know. I am highly considering going black market and getting some Cypionate or Enanthate from the black market. I could get a two year supply for a tenth of getting it legitimately. Plus I'd have control over how much, how often and how long, as well as if I wanted to just lay off or try some other approach I could do that as well. Problem is, I haven't messed with the black market in so long, I wouldn't know where to begin.

This is when living in a banana republic would serve me well. I could just go the the pharmacia any time I need something, no questions asked.

Actually, if anybody knows of some good reliable black market sources that you are willing to share. PM me please! (No home brews please)

Thanks!

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KSman
Level 1

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7958

I think that the question is better ask this way:
-----
Does the HPTA and structure of the testes improve while in TRT then allowing one to stop TRT and then have acceptable hormone levels? Have any studies reported this?
-----

A study would have to get volinteers who would be taken off of TRT, with SERMs or whatever. Then there physical, sexual and mental well-being would have to measured. That is what a study would do, evaluate such aspects. More to the point would be a report of how many men then stayed off of TRT vs resumed TRT. And a report on the men who resumed and the effects of that. I can't see such a study every happening... unless a bunch of guys here want to post that they want to participate in such a study.... anyone?

We do see a few cases of guys on TRT who have demented doctors who have guys stop TRT for perhaps 2 months, so they can do lab work. None of the guys reporting about this here had a single good thing to say about it. They felt somewhere between crap and and death.

The answer is an obvious no, unless a physical problem with blood vessels of the testes is found and corrected.

While on TRT, the HPTA will not improve while dormant. Probably the opposite. For those who have not been using hCG, the testes will degrade irreversably. And do not ignore how the brain/mind reacts to such things.

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e-loo
Level

Join date: Dec 2005
Posts: 336

pat36 wrote: I am highly considering going black market and getting some Cypionate or Enanthate from the black market. I could get a two year supply for a tenth of getting it legitimately.


No offense, but this all seems odd to me. In your first post you want to "recover" and get off of TRT. In this post you want to inject higher levels of testosterone that are therapeutic.

At any rate, TRT is for life. Low test is a condition that you manage, like diabetes.

It took me forever to get my dosage right, so there were lots of trials and tribulations.

But at no time would I ever consider going off TRT -- I could not live that way again -- It was HORRIBLE.

I went about 2 or 3 years untreated, it was the worst period of my life. A nightmare, time wasted during which many good things in my life slipped out of my hands because I was too dull and lifeless to hang on to them.

pat36 wrote:the black market. I could get a two year supply for a tenth of getting it legitimately.


That seems odd too, as my insurance pays 100% for generic test enan.

Even if I didn't have insurance, I would suspect that Costco or Sam's Club is much cheaper for Test Cypionate or Enanthate than any black market source that is selling real testosterone.

Good luck -- I hope you get this all figured out to where it all works for you.

--

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pat
Level 3

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 17559

e-loo wrote:
pat36 wrote: I am highly considering going black market and getting some Cypionate or Enanthate from the black market. I could get a two year supply for a tenth of getting it legitimately.

No offense, but this all seems odd to me. In your first post you want to "recover" and get off of TRT. In this post you want to inject higher levels of testosterone that are therapeutic.

At any rate, TRT is for life. Low test is a condition that you manage, like diabetes.

It took me forever to get my dosage right, so there were lots of trials and tribulations.

But at no time would I ever consider going off TRT -- I could not live that way again -- It was HORRIBLE.

I went about 2 or 3 years untreated, it was the worst period of my life. A nightmare, time wasted during which many good things in my life slipped out of my hands because I was too dull and lifeless to hang on to them.

pat36 wrote:the black market. I could get a two year supply for a tenth of getting it legitimately.

That seems odd too, as my insurance pays 100% for generic test enan.

Even if I didn't have insurance, I would suspect that Costco or Sam's Club is much cheaper for Test Cypionate or Enanthate than any black market source that is selling real testosterone.

Good luck -- I hope you get this all figured out to where it all works for you.

--


I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I just want my options open. My dr. is a GP, not a urologist or endocrinologist. He needs to be educated. The reason I want my options open is if I wished to try different methods in which to raise my natural T. I am of course, afraid of doing this because I feel SO much better, I never want to feel bad again.
I spoke of the black market because I am on androgel, which works for me rather well, but I'd rather shoot myself in the ass every couple of weeks, but my dr insists that they do it and not me. I don't have 4 hours to waste ever couple of weeks for them to do it. I like to have control over my own stuff. Actually, I just may visit a urologist and let them take over my treatment if I think they are worth a damn. I think I may have more options that way.

My problem with dr.s these days is that they have very much become nannies. They don't want you to have any say so over your own treatments because "they know better". I am to old to be babied. I accept the risks for my own decisions. I don't need to be mommied by a doctor and I resent that shit from them. That's my thinking about the black market. I I live in S. America I could just got to the pharmacy and get what I need. He I need 'permission'....That shit pisses me off.

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Dr.PowerClean
Level 1

Join date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1127

pat36, I have pondered this question, earlier on in my HRT, because I have (had) dreams of competing in Master's weightlifting and wondered what options I have that would help me but allow me to pass drug testing and compete.
Two things happened along the way. First, the answers I kept finding were not promising and as of today I do NOT believe there is a viable alternative to maintaining even low normal T levels if you have true hypogonadism and cant even make a 200 level on your own.
The second thing happened, in that I got what they call in writing "foreshadowing", a taste of what lies ahead for me if Estrogen is allowed to continue to rise while T is managed poorly. This state was so horrible that I became enormously more comfortable with the concept that I must be in total control of my own HRT, with doctors serving as mere prescription writers when necessary. I resisted accepting this notion, because as a doctor it is obviously against every fiber of my being. But it is just how it is, with a few rare exceptions.
I will put one caveat on this whole discussion. You never know what the future may bring. Better SERMS, and SARMS (selective androgen receptor modulators) may one day replace current HRT protocols and in the ultimate dream not cause such a profound HPTA shutdown as occurs with current TRT. And there's a guy I know running a stem cell clinic in Costa Rica, and we talked about one day experimenting with injecting androgen producing stem cells directly into the testicles. Science fiction right now, but not outside of the realm of possible.
Try to stay positive while accepting the current fairly clear realities, and never be afraid to ask questions. Doc

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rfish1966
Level 4

Join date: Mar 2003
Posts: 345

Well said doc.

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ontothenext
Level 2

Join date: Nov 2006
Posts: 184

Dr.PowerClean wrote:
pat36, I have pondered this question, earlier on in my HRT, because I have (had) dreams of competing in Master's weightlifting and wondered what options I have that would help me but allow me to pass drug testing and compete.
Two things happened along the way. First, the answers I kept finding were not promising and as of today I do NOT believe there is a viable alternative to maintaining even low normal T levels if you have true hypogonadism and cant even make a 200 level on your own.
The second thing happened, in that I got what they call in writing "foreshadowing", a taste of what lies ahead for me if Estrogen is allowed to continue to rise while T is managed poorly. This state was so horrible that I became enormously more comfortable with the concept that I must be in total control of my own HRT, with doctors serving as mere prescription writers when necessary. I resisted accepting this notion, because as a doctor it is obviously against every fiber of my being. But it is just how it is, with a few rare exceptions.
I will put one caveat on this whole discussion. You never know what the future may bring. Better SERMS, and SARMS (selective androgen receptor modulators) may one day replace current HRT protocols and in the ultimate dream not cause such a profound HPTA shutdown as occurs with current TRT. And there's a guy I know running a stem cell clinic in Costa Rica, and we talked about one day experimenting with injecting androgen producing stem cells directly into the testicles. Science fiction right now, but not outside of the realm of possible.
Try to stay positive while accepting the current fairly clear realities, and never be afraid to ask questions. Doc


Nice little ditty, Doc. A question that comes to mind for me is: what is the science behind sport drug testing? What are the parameters and what is actually being tested? I heard that it is a ratio between T and something called epitestosterone. How would HRT affect a drug test, if put to the test? Just curious.

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sawadeekrob
Level 1

Join date: Dec 2005
Posts: 776

happydog48 wrote:
I doubt that such a study exists. To be honest, I can't think of any logical medical reason to do such a study. The only guys who go on and off testosterone are gear-heads and no legitimate doctor is going to study steroid abusers.

TRT is not a cure for a disease, it is a treatment for a permanent condition (hypogonadism). Keyword: permanent.


Sorry but you are completely wrong. I have the papers from the most recent journals. PM me with an email and I will send the pdf's

Lots of men are Hypogonadal and lots of studies recently have been done with steroid users. And sponsored by US institutions.

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e-loo
Level

Join date: Dec 2005
Posts: 336

pat36 wrote:
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I just want my options open. My dr. is a GP, not a urologist or endocrinologist. <SNIP>

I'd rather shoot myself in the ass every couple of weeks, but my dr insists that they do it and not me. I don't have 4 hours to waste ever couple of weeks for them to do it. I like to have control over my own stuff. Actually, I just may visit a urologist and let them take over my treatment


pat36, gotcha -- FWIW I started with an endocrinologist on androgel. When it didn't work he switched me to injections. And had me doing my own injections from day one -- nurse took me thru the steps, watched me do my first one, and certified me as a-ok.

Now I am with a urologist. He has me do my own injections.

Knowing my GP he would have me doing my own injections too.

So yes, get to another doctor. BTW You need to be injecting at least ONCE a week, not every 14 days.

--

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