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GqArtguy
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Join date: Aug 2003
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TheJonty wrote:
GqArtguy wrote:
Another interesting read: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1...

Jonty I sent you a PM, please let me know if it went through.


For anybody else clicking that link, pretty sure the article you were trying to link to (Current anti-doping policy: a critical appraisal) is in March 2007. When I clicked on it I was brought to the archives and not the article specifically. Haven't had time to read it yet though.

Also, didn't get your PM, sent you one though. Can you receive them?


Yes I can receive them. Cant send them though for some reason. Anyway, Jonty is right about the article. I think this link might work: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1...

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TheJonty
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Join date: Apr 2007
Location: Alberta, CAN
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GqArtguy wrote:
Yes I can receive them. Cant send them though for some reason. Anyway, Jonty is right about the article. I think this link might work: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1...



Going to try real hard to make this my last post in this thread, and I wouldn't do it at all but I think that article is a very interesting read and I strongly recommend it for anyone who ever posted in this thread or even considered posting in this thread. It's not necessarily a quick or easy read (looks like it was written by three doctors) but I'd say it's worth your time.

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yarni
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Join date: Dec 2007
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alexus wrote:
you:

> cheating and corruption has been going on since ancient times. It is clearly a part of our DNA in all areas of life. To fold your arms and sulk about it just seems completely pointless to me.

do you feel similarly about other things that have been going on 'since ancient times'?

things like genocide and rape?


Hi Alexus, it seems you are just introducing shocking topics for the sake of shocking topics now. How you make a link between cheating in a game and forcing someone to have sex with you, or murdering massive amounts of people, I am not sure - but if you class these acts as similar, you should probably have a deep and honest internal assessment of what it means to be human.

alexus wrote:at this point i'm not intending to attribute the straw man 'oh yeah, i think rape is okay since it has been going on since ancient times' view to you. i am intending you to back down on your view that it is pointless to get upset about things that have been done since ancient times since presumably you, too, get upset about some of the things that have been done since ancient times...


Fine, I take your point, but it is not strong enough for me to feel that I should take a stronger view on cheating. Comparing them to themes such as rape is not going to change my mind!

alexus wrote: here is a question for you:

is it morally acceptable to cheat if one can get away with it?

this is a question that Plato asks us... it is how he introduces the issue of morality - he ties it in with getting away with the consequence of cheating. the idea here seems to be that cheating others is something that people feel is wrong insofar as they have a sense of morality at all. of course some people lack a moral sense. we have a name for them...

is the idea that one isn't really cheating if everyone is doing it? then the idea is simply that everyone is doing it. do people really believe that? that there isn't anybody who doesn't use illegal drugs in international level weightlifting. for reals?


In my opinion, framing the 21 century through Platonic questions won't get you very far. You seem almost transfixed on this idea that morality can be gauged through ones willingness to cheat. While I can see the logic in that, I just believe morality is ultimately a far more complicated issue.

I mean yes, if someone commits rape, the immorality (to put it mildly) is clear. But when someone cheats in a sport, the level of immorality is debatable. I think your rhetorical device of comparing cheating to things like rape is both misguided and something of a disrespectful throwing around of ideas to suit your response.

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PB Andy
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Join date: Mar 2006
Location: Illinois, USA
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I'm surprised you even responded.

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Swolegasm
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Join date: Dec 2010
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TheJonty wrote:
GqArtguy wrote:
Yes I can receive them. Cant send them though for some reason. Anyway, Jonty is right about the article. I think this link might work: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1...



Going to try real hard to make this my last post in this thread, and I wouldn't do it at all but I think that article is a very interesting read and I strongly recommend it for anyone who ever posted in this thread or even considered posting in this thread. It's not necessarily a quick or easy read (looks like it was written by three doctors) but I'd say it's worth your time.


I just putting this out there, the people who wrote this are working in the medical profession and from this they would stand to gain. So just read it with a grain of salt.

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yarni
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Join date: Dec 2007
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Posts: 224

Swolegasm wrote:
TheJonty wrote:
GqArtguy wrote:
Yes I can receive them. Cant send them though for some reason. Anyway, Jonty is right about the article. I think this link might work: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1...



Going to try real hard to make this my last post in this thread, and I wouldn't do it at all but I think that article is a very interesting read and I strongly recommend it for anyone who ever posted in this thread or even considered posting in this thread. It's not necessarily a quick or easy read (looks like it was written by three doctors) but I'd say it's worth your time.


I just putting this out there, the people who wrote this are working in the medical profession and from this they would stand to gain. So just read it with a grain of salt.


Can you point out any suspicious parts? To me it was an interesting report. It wasn't particularly slanted in favour of the medical profession in my opinion. In fact, it suggested that money is being wasted on fighting the anti-doping war. That there are far greater drug problems generally in the population at large. That introducing much needed ethical guidelines for doctors (which weigh up ALL of the factors involved, not just the popular media messages) and agreeing on realistic standards could be more effective. etc, etc. You know PROGRESSION

And where exactly do you go for medical advice? The shoemaker?

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Abedd Ame
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Join date: Dec 2008
Location: Texas, USA
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Universally regulated doping. Interesting. I do see the argument that some persons in the medical field have a substantial potential pecuniary gain from regulated doping. And, it is not uncommon for a a person to encourage the opinions and activities that would increase the likelihood of something in his or her own best interest.

That being said, pecuniary gain is not wrong or evil per se: Most folks do it openly and frequently; further, most folks encourage other folks to do it too.

Rather the issue, IMHO, with universally regulated doping is that it would increase the cost of competing in the sport. Whereas, the current costs include travel, coaches, nutrition, equipment already put competition beyond the reach of many individuals and communities the addition universally regulated doping increases the costs by at least the cost of the doping technique itself and medical monitoring. These costs cannot be considered while ignoring that competition generates little or no income for the participants. Ultimately, I believe it would hurt the sport by making it cost prohibitive.

That matter aside, I am curios as how others feel as to whether or not doping under the present rules is more or less fraud per se. Any thoughts?

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man bear pig
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There is a strong argument against doping, especially considering the conduct and treatment of retired athletes in former and current bloc countries.

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man bear pig
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Anyway, it's not the drugs that separates the US from Bulgaria, China, Russia, Belarus, etc in producing elite lifters, it is the fact such potential athletes could go on to professional sports here. In those countries, lifting is a profession and for some a quite lucrative one.

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Abedd Ame
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Join date: Dec 2008
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Money: always the answer, rarely the solution.
Does Bulgaria have that many people? Hard to imagine but the proof is in the pudding.
The notion that all the potential U.S. weightlifting talent is wrapped up in professional sports seems odd because not all weightlifters are great at other sports simply by virtue of being great weightlifters --- the inverse would also seem to be credible: why would a baseball stAr or a professional quaterback be expected to excel at weightlifting by virtue of his or her competency in a different sport.
Is it fair to believe that there is another fundamental reason for the disparity? Perhaps, and only by anecdote, I tend to believe that the U.S. does not foster an environment where potential weightlifting athletes receive sufficient encouragement or incentive to pursue weightlifting singlemindedly, in near complete exclusion to other past times or events.

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yarni
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Abedd Ame wrote:
Money: always the answer, rarely the solution.
Does Bulgaria have that many people? Hard to imagine but the proof is in the pudding.


Bulgaria has approx 1/3 of the population of New York City. This is definitely not about numbers.

Abedd Ame wrote:
The notion that all the potential U.S. weightlifting talent is wrapped up in professional sports seems odd because not all weightlifters are great at other sports simply by virtue of being great weightlifters --- the inverse would also seem to be credible: why would a baseball stAr or a professional quaterback be expected to excel at weightlifting by virtue of his or her competency in a different sport.


One argument would be that if a person inclined to be driven towards competitive sports, he/she can focus that drive in any area. However it is of course true that a basketball player will be never be a worldclass weightlifter simply by virtue of bio-mechanics. There will always be someone comparatively similar (in age, size, ability, drive, etc, etc) but who has a mechanical advantage, e.g. much shorter femurs. Exhibit A:



Abedd Ame wrote:
Is it fair to believe that there is another fundamental reason for the disparity? Perhaps, and only by anecdote, I tend to believe that the U.S. does not foster an environment where potential weightlifting athletes receive sufficient encouragement or incentive to pursue weightlifting singlemindedly, in near complete exclusion to other past times or events.


I think so. Any athlete who shows potential in weightlifting will be encouraged to (and no doubt actively want to) join the football team. Much better support, real career opportunities and the potential for success.

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Bingbeast
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Aren't most if not all lifters competing at the International level taking stuff? Isn't it just a matter of who gets caught?

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