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Eating Too Much?
 

ineedskins
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85

So what people are say is i am clearly eating to much? And not working hard enough? Those do equal fat!

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-Sigil-
Level 3

Join date: Oct 2008
Posts: 301

ineedskins,

Is this what you're going for? http://www.70sbig.com/about/

Don't eat so much. I have a friend just like you (tall, tendency to put on fat when overeating) and he went through a years worth of "eat big to get big" and just bloated up.

I doubt your "intensity" is lacking in the gym...people are so quick to assume everyone but himself is training like a pussy. Maybe revisit your training, a bit higher frequency, more volume, drill major exercises more, etc. Try CT's HP Mass program. It's very "untraditional" but whatever..I've gotten more results doing this and I know lots of beginners/tnation members have as well.

Don't stress so much about forcing yourself to eat or spending idle hours during the day gorging on food. I did that and spun circles for years, gaining some strength but never looking remotely like how I wanted to. Same with my friend. Eat sensibly, to satiety, but don't trigger that binge-mode/fatass eating style every day..maybe a few times a week but keep it low stress and enjoyable. Save that attitude for the gym:)

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Professor X
Level 5

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 51898

-Sigil- wrote:

I doubt your "intensity" is lacking in the gym.



I don't. I am betting that is exactly why he looks that way.

I go to a decent gym and there are still only a select few who actually train hard...and they are also the only ones making big progress. It makes all the difference in the world and is usually what separates those really big dudes from people who claim to have been lifting for years but still look the same.

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americaninsweden
Level

Join date: Feb 2012
Posts: 352

I "got big" (read fat) when I was in college went from like 220 to 255 at 6'5 in 3 or 4 months my bench went up from like 275 to an easy 315 in that time but that was the vast majority of my working out. Eat less, if i were you i would start by cutting at least 1 liter of milk and a potato, that should cut you down about 700 calories a day and be a start at least. Like everyone else said increase volume/cardio a bit and you should be just fine.

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fr0IVIan
Level 3

Join date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1986

Professor X wrote:
-Sigil- wrote:

I doubt your "intensity" is lacking in the gym.



I don't. I am betting that is exactly why he looks that way.

I go to a decent gym and there are still only a select few who actually train hard...and they are also the only ones making big progress. It makes all the difference in the world and is usually what separates those really big dudes from people who claim to have been lifting for years but still look the same.


I'll agree with this. I gained 40 lb over 6 months but I got obviously bigger everywhere. Prof X even said I got swole!


IMO if you aren't testing your limits with your work sets, then why bother? unless you're deloading, rehabbing or practicing a new technique.

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seekonk
Level

Join date: Apr 2009
Posts: 603

Professor X wrote:
seekonk wrote:
Less fat means less conversion of testosterone to estrogen and as a result less gyno, easier muscle gain.


Yes, let's keep the tall tales and bs out of this. You won't be "converting more test to estrogen" just because your body fat percentage is a little higher. Please provide proof of this if you argue further.


Unless we are looking at different pictures, his body fat percentage is not just a "little" high. He appears to be carrying a large amount of visceral fat. Anyway, here is a paper supporting the assertion I made. Several more can be found on pubmed:

Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2012 Apr 3. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2265.2012.04401.x. [Epub ahead of print]
Associations between visceral adipose tissue, inflammation and sex steroid concentrations in men.
Gautier A, Bonnet F, Dubois S, Massart C, Grosheny C, Bachelot A, Aub√???√??√?¬© C, Balkau B, Ducluzeau PH.
Source

CONTEXT:

In men, obesity and the metabolic syndrome are accompanied by decreased testosterone levels, but little is known about the associations between visceral adipose tissue (VAT), VAT-related inflammation and sex steroids.
OBJECTIVE:

To examine the relative impact of VAT, abdominal subcutaneous adipose tissue (SAT) and interleukine-6 (IL-6), a marker of VAT-induced inflammation, on testosterone (T) and 17√???√??√?¬≤-oestradiol (E2) levels in dysmetabolic men.
METHODS:

We study the NUMEVOX cohort of 229 men, 27-77 years who all had at least one metabolic syndrome criterion (on average three). IL-6, C-reactive protein, HOMA insulin resistance index (HOMA-IR), liver enzymes, E2, LH, SHBG, T, waist circumference and BMI were measured; bioavailable testosterone (BT) was calculated from T and SHBG; MRI-assessed VAT and SAT were analysed in 109 of these men.
RESULTS:

VAT was strongly correlated with E2 (Spearman r=0.38, p<0.001) and with BT/E2 (r=-0.42, p<0.001) while SAT was not correlated with either. IL-6 was correlated with E2 (r=0.19, p=0.007), BT (r=-0.19, p=0.006) and BT/E2 (r=-0.30 p<0.001). In multivariate linear analysis, the relation between VAT and E2 was independent of age, BMI (p=0.008), leptin (p<0.001), T and SHBG. Log(IL-6) was significantly inversely related with log(BT) (p=0.032) independently of age, VAT, leptin and HOMA-IR.
CONCLUSIONS:

E2 levels were positively associated with VAT, but not with SAT, while T and BT were negatively and independently associated with IL-6. The significant inverse association between IL-6 and T suggests an important role of low-grade visceral fat inflammation in the central hypogonadism associated with the metabolic syndrome.

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Kenny_Powers
Level

Join date: Apr 2012
Posts: 7

Professor X wrote:
-Sigil- wrote:

I doubt your "intensity" is lacking in the gym.



I don't. I am betting that is exactly why he looks that way.


THIS IS EXACTLY CORRECT. STOP READING AND GET YOUR ASS BACK TO THE GYM.

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Professor X
Level 5

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 51898

You are discussing OBESITY. We are not talking about OBESITY. That is why I wrote "A LITTLE HIGHER".

We have been through this too many times. You don't take models for obesity and slap them on people who are simply 5-10% body fat fatter than contest shape or "ideal".

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roybot
Level 1

Join date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6707

ineedskins wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Like I said, I would blame lack of intensity first. Second, you gained 25lbs in only 4 months. You only do that if you have the genetics for it and are gaining the muscle to justify it.

Yes, you ate too much OR didn't train hard enough. My bet is both.

You are in the gym how many times a week?

You spend how long working out?

These are workouts that other serious lifters would watch and say, "wow that guy works hard"?


currently 4, it was 3 the last 3 months. I spend roughly an hour in the gym. Yesterdays workout was.


Dead lift: [email protected]
1x3@110kg
1x3@125kg

Squat:1x8@65kg
[email protected]
[email protected]

Good mornings: 3x10@20kg

Leg curls: 3x10@30kg

Ab circuit: 10 weighted crunches, 20 kettle bell Russian twists, 10 leg raises, 20 side bends each side@20kg.

Treadmill sprints: 11x15secs sprint 45 secs rest@12 incline.

Dont think this has anybody wowing.


3 x 3 for your main exercise? Pump up the volume. You aren't fit enough for intervals yet. The work-to rest-ratio isn't high enough (which suggests you could lift more intensely too). Work up to at least 30 mins of continuous running before you attempt hard interval sprints.

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ineedskins
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85

roybot wrote:
ineedskins wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Like I said, I would blame lack of intensity first. Second, you gained 25lbs in only 4 months. You only do that if you have the genetics for it and are gaining the muscle to justify it.

Yes, you ate too much OR didn't train hard enough. My bet is both.

You are in the gym how many times a week?

You spend how long working out?

These are workouts that other serious lifters would watch and say, "wow that guy works hard"?


currently 4, it was 3 the last 3 months. I spend roughly an hour in the gym. Yesterdays workout was.


Dead lift: [email protected]
1x3@110kg
1x3@125kg

Squat:1x8@65kg
[email protected]
[email protected]

Good mornings: 3x10@20kg

Leg curls: 3x10@30kg

Ab circuit: 10 weighted crunches, 20 kettle bell Russian twists, 10 leg raises, 20 side bends each side@20kg.

Treadmill sprints: 11x15secs sprint 45 secs rest@12 incline.

Dont think this has anybody wowing.


3 x 3 for your main exercise? Pump up the volume. You aren't fit enough for intervals yet. The work-to rest-ratio isn't high enough (which suggests you could lift more intensely too). Work up to at least 30 mins of continuous running before you attempt hard interval sprints.


I'm doing the 5/3/1 workout, i could use anything really as assistance exercises. Any suggestions?

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ineedskins
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85

What do ye suggest I do about my diet? what should i drop/keep? I will be upping the volume and conditioning for sure.

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sexyxe
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 626

xjusticex2013x wrote:
sexyxe wrote:
2L of milk has 1500 calories alone. Quite a bit of that is from fat and a large protion of that is saturated fat.


Why would the fat content be important?


A diet of either high fat OR high carb is generally acceptable but having one of both isn't usually an acceptable diet. From what I've read it can lead to higher fat gains.

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Chris87
Level

Join date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1983

ineedskins wrote:
Chris87 wrote:
ineedskins wrote:
caveman101 wrote:
how are you training? what are you current numbers?


Simplest strength template out of Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 2 nd edition at the moment. It was full body the last 3 months.

I will be hitting prs next week of:

Squat:110kg
Bench:65kg
Dead: 132.5kg
OHP: 45kg



Maybe it's just me, but I think you're having a problem a lot of guys have, trying to do too much too soon. I see a lot of guys that decide they want to gain muscle, so they drastically increase the amount of food they are eating and put on a lot of fat. You have to realize that just because you force yourself full of food, that doesn't mean your going to blow up with muscle.

Just like developing strength, it takes a long time to gain a lot of muscle. The vast majority of people just aren't going to be able to gain 25 pounds that quickly and have it be very "clean" weight, for a lack of a better term.

I think this is what a lot of people that get fat while training on a Starting Strength or 5x5 program have problems with. It's not the program, it's the fact that the people who use it so often overshoot their calories by a lot, and don't dial it back when they start gaining a lot of fat.

5/3/1 focuses on the long term, not the here and now. Getting big and strong is a long process, and just like you aren't going to put 100 pounds on your bench in a couple months, you aren't going to get huge in that time frame either.

Jim W has answered a lot of quesitons on diet before, and has stated his philosophy to be that he doesn't worry about "cutting" and "bulking" and that he just eats good food until he is full. This is a good plan. If you are actively trying to put on weight, I would suggest you cut back on how much you're eating, because as you can see it is too much too soon.



So basically i tried to get big with out the big numbers? Clearly it is yeah :P

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ineedskins
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85

-Sigil- wrote:
ineedskins,

Is this what you're going for? http://www.70sbig.com/about/

Don't eat so much. I have a friend just like you (tall, tendency to put on fat when overeating) and he went through a years worth of "eat big to get big" and just bloated up.

I doubt your "intensity" is lacking in the gym...people are so quick to assume everyone but himself is training like a pussy. Maybe revisit your training, a bit higher frequency, more volume, drill major exercises more, etc. Try CT's HP Mass program. It's very "untraditional" but whatever..I've gotten more results doing this and I know lots of beginners/tnation members have as well.

Don't stress so much about forcing yourself to eat or spending idle hours during the day gorging on food. I did that and spun circles for years, gaining some strength but never looking remotely like how I wanted to. Same with my friend. Eat sensibly, to satiety, but don't trigger that binge-mode/fatass eating style every day..maybe a few times a week but keep it low stress and enjoyable. Save that attitude for the gym:)


Thanks for the advice Sigil, I appreciate it.

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CrewPierce
Level 5

Join date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3979

Professor X wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
Something isn't adding up here. Are you really 208?? I am the same height and weight as you and train in the exact same manor and to me you look like 180 of well fat.

So you are doing good mornings with just the bar?? Dude my 105 pound wife does 43kg, so I suggest you drop these and do stiff leg deadlifts to build up your lower back and hamstrings since it seems like you can load up the weight more judging from your deadlift numbers.

I wish I could help more but your weight/look/lifting numbers just aren't adding up to me.



I have to agree...but I am also learning that a lot of these guys put about the same effort into lifting that I see middle aged housewives doing when they sit on the leg abduction machine just to talk.

These are newbs. Short of having the worst genetics on the planet, I would expect way more progress being made overall.

They get the hard copy stuff right....like the "specific number of calories" or "the exact number of reps"...but intangible concepts like putting everything you have into that lift can't be learned over the internet.

That alone will hold them back.


Agreed with you 100%

A shitty plan with a lot of effort is better than a perfect plan with no effort

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CrewPierce
Level 5

Join date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3979

ineedskins wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
Something isn't adding up here. Are you really 208?? I am the same height and weight as you and train in the exact same manor and to me you look like 180 of well fat.

So you are doing good mornings with just the bar?? Dude my 105 pound wife does 43kg, so I suggest you drop these and do stiff leg deadlifts to build up your lower back and hamstrings since it seems like you can load up the weight more judging from your deadlift numbers.

I wish I could help more but your weight/look/lifting numbers just aren't adding up to me.


I dunno what to say, I clearly havent been training as long as you. Im starting with the bar its not my max at all. Perhaps its the amount of time im training? I dunno im here because i dont know myself


I am 100% confident you can do more weight than the bar! You just aren't pushing yourself hard enough. If you want 5/3/1 to work you need to be busting your ass on the lifts! It isn't supposed to feel nice and easy, it should be blood, sweat, and tears!

I have all the faith in the world that when you start pushing yourself harder you'll see much better progress. At least you are willing to listen to people and not get defensive about it, that's a start!

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Chris87
Level

Join date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1983

Chris87 wrote:
ineedskins wrote:
Chris87 wrote:
ineedskins wrote:
caveman101 wrote:
how are you training? what are you current numbers?


Simplest strength template out of Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 2 nd edition at the moment. It was full body the last 3 months.

I will be hitting prs next week of:

Squat:110kg
Bench:65kg
Dead: 132.5kg
OHP: 45kg



Maybe it's just me, but I think you're having a problem a lot of guys have, trying to do too much too soon. I see a lot of guys that decide they want to gain muscle, so they drastically increase the amount of food they are eating and put on a lot of fat. You have to realize that just because you force yourself full of food, that doesn't mean your going to blow up with muscle.

Just like developing strength, it takes a long time to gain a lot of muscle. The vast majority of people just aren't going to be able to gain 25 pounds that quickly and have it be very "clean" weight, for a lack of a better term.

I think this is what a lot of people that get fat while training on a Starting Strength or 5x5 program have problems with. It's not the program, it's the fact that the people who use it so often overshoot their calories by a lot, and don't dial it back when they start gaining a lot of fat.

5/3/1 focuses on the long term, not the here and now. Getting big and strong is a long process, and just like you aren't going to put 100 pounds on your bench in a couple months, you aren't going to get huge in that time frame either.

Jim W has answered a lot of quesitons on diet before, and has stated his philosophy to be that he doesn't worry about "cutting" and "bulking" and that he just eats good food until he is full. This is a good plan. If you are actively trying to put on weight, I would suggest you cut back on how much you're eating, because as you can see it is too much too soon.



So basically i tried to get big with out the big numbers? Clearly it is yeah :P


That's a little bit of an oversimplification, but basically yes. What I'm trying to say is that you got over ambitous and tried to do too much too soon.

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ineedskins
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85

CrewPierce wrote:
ineedskins wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
Something isn't adding up here. Are you really 208?? I am the same height and weight as you and train in the exact same manor and to me you look like 180 of well fat.

So you are doing good mornings with just the bar?? Dude my 105 pound wife does 43kg, so I suggest you drop these and do stiff leg deadlifts to build up your lower back and hamstrings since it seems like you can load up the weight more judging from your deadlift numbers.

I wish I could help more but your weight/look/lifting numbers just aren't adding up to me.


I dunno what to say, I clearly havent been training as long as you. Im starting with the bar its not my max at all. Perhaps its the amount of time im training? I dunno im here because i dont know myself


I am 100% confident you can do more weight than the bar! You just aren't pushing yourself hard enough. If you want 5/3/1 to work you need to be busting your ass on the lifts! It isn't supposed to feel nice and easy, it should be blood, sweat, and tears!

I have all the faith in the world that when you start pushing yourself harder you'll see much better progress. At least you are willing to listen to people and not get defensive about it, that's a start!


I'm always willing to listen and learn, I will take every bit of advice people have given me and put it to good use I assure you. Thanks for the help crewpierce.

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ineedskins
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85

Todays workout was

Bench: 3x47.5kg
3x55kg
4x62.5

Incline Db:5x10@20kg

V-bar row:5x10@30kg

Face pull:[email protected]

EZ-bar curls:3x12@16kg

Rope push downs:3x12

Hows does this look?


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CrewPierce
Level 5

Join date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3979

ineedskins wrote:
Todays workout was

Bench: 3x47.5kg
3x55kg
4x62.5

Incline Db:5x10@20kg

V-bar row:5x10@30kg

Face pull:[email protected]

EZ-bar curls:3x12@16kg

Rope push downs:3x12

Hows does this look?



Not looking too bad, I think you were missing a shoulder exercise though.

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roybot
Level 1

Join date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6707

ineedskins wrote:
roybot wrote:
ineedskins wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Like I said, I would blame lack of intensity first. Second, you gained 25lbs in only 4 months. You only do that if you have the genetics for it and are gaining the muscle to justify it.

Yes, you ate too much OR didn't train hard enough. My bet is both.

You are in the gym how many times a week?

You spend how long working out?

These are workouts that other serious lifters would watch and say, "wow that guy works hard"?


currently 4, it was 3 the last 3 months. I spend roughly an hour in the gym. Yesterdays workout was.


Dead lift: [email protected]
1x3@110kg
1x3@125kg

Squat:1x8@65kg
[email protected]
[email protected]

Good mornings: 3x10@20kg

Leg curls: 3x10@30kg

Ab circuit: 10 weighted crunches, 20 kettle bell Russian twists, 10 leg raises, 20 side bends each side@20kg.

Treadmill sprints: 11x15secs sprint 45 secs rest@12 incline.

Dont think this has anybody wowing.


3 x 3 for your main exercise? Pump up the volume. You aren't fit enough for intervals yet. The work-to rest-ratio isn't high enough (which suggests you could lift more intensely too). Work up to at least 30 mins of continuous running before you attempt hard interval sprints.


I'm doing the 5/3/1 workout, i could use anything really as assistance exercises. Any suggestions?


I've got no experience with the 5/3/1 program, so I'm not in a position to comment or give modifications there. Bottom line is that you need to earn your calories. It's very hard to convince someone who claims to train intensely that they aren't working as hard as they think, so volume is the next best thing. If there's a template with a higher workload, do that. And if you've put on fat with very little muscle, you're either eating too much or not working as hard as you could be.

Clearly it's no mystery that if you manage to get fat in the first place then you HAVE been eating enough.

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Boffin
Level

Join date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1313

ineedskins wrote:

Yesterdays workout was.


Dead lift: [email protected]
1x3@110kg
1x3@125kg

Squat:1x8@65kg
[email protected]
[email protected]

Good mornings: 3x10@20kg

Leg curls: 3x10@30kg

Ab circuit: 10 weighted crunches, 20 kettle bell Russian twists, 10 leg raises, 20 side bends each side@20kg.

Treadmill sprints: 11x15secs sprint 45 secs rest@12 incline.

Dont think this has anybody wowing.

Pretty sure nobody will be wowing.
My fist reaction to the above was 'where's the volume?' 12 sets? (excluding abs)
Your still a beginner, most beginers need volume.
Try DL:
60x5-8reps
80x5-8 reps
95x5
105x3
115x3
125x3
and something similar for Squat.

I hope you have some type of program your working with, not a DIY version.

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kakno
Level

Join date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2764

seekonk wrote:
Unless we are looking at different pictures, his body fat percentage is not just a "little" high. He appears to be carrying a large amount of visceral fat. Anyway, here is a paper supporting the assertion I made. Several more can be found on pubmed:

Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2012 Apr 3. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2265.2012.04401.x. [Epub ahead of print]
Associations between visceral adipose tissue, inflammation and sex steroid concentrations in men.
Gautier A, Bonnet F, Dubois S, Massart C, Grosheny C, Bachelot A, Aub√?????√????√???√??√?¬© C, Balkau B, Ducluzeau PH.
Source

CONTEXT:

In men, obesity and the metabolic syndrome are accompanied by decreased testosterone levels, but little is known about the associations between visceral adipose tissue (VAT), VAT-related inflammation and sex steroids.
OBJECTIVE:

To examine the relative impact of VAT, abdominal subcutaneous adipose tissue (SAT) and interleukine-6 (IL-6), a marker of VAT-induced inflammation, on testosterone (T) and 17√?????√????√???√??√?¬≤-oestradiol (E2) levels in dysmetabolic men.
METHODS:

We study the NUMEVOX cohort of 229 men, 27-77 years who all had at least one metabolic syndrome criterion (on average three). IL-6, C-reactive protein, HOMA insulin resistance index (HOMA-IR), liver enzymes, E2, LH, SHBG, T, waist circumference and BMI were measured; bioavailable testosterone (BT) was calculated from T and SHBG; MRI-assessed VAT and SAT were analysed in 109 of these men.
RESULTS:

VAT was strongly correlated with E2 (Spearman r=0.38, p<0.001) and with BT/E2 (r=-0.42, p<0.001) while SAT was not correlated with either. IL-6 was correlated with E2 (r=0.19, p=0.007), BT (r=-0.19, p=0.006) and BT/E2 (r=-0.30 p<0.001). In multivariate linear analysis, the relation between VAT and E2 was independent of age, BMI (p=0.008), leptin (p<0.001), T and SHBG. Log(IL-6) was significantly inversely related with log(BT) (p=0.032) independently of age, VAT, leptin and HOMA-IR.
CONCLUSIONS:

E2 levels were positively associated with VAT, but not with SAT, while T and BT were negatively and independently associated with IL-6. The significant inverse association between IL-6 and T suggests an important role of low-grade visceral fat inflammation in the central hypogonadism associated with the metabolic syndrome.

Cause and effect, dude. This study is completely irrelevant since the issue is adiposal aromatization, not correlation between fat and suboptimal hormone levels. Even if there is proof in vitro you have no idea what it means in practice for this kid. And you can't say he's got a lot of visceral fat from looking at two pics, come on.

OP: You don't need to bulk to get past those numbers and I suggest you eat a normal amount of real food and lift like you mean it. Always beat the log book whatever it takes. Do this for a year, then take a look at where you are and decide where to go from there.

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vali
Level 2

Join date: Apr 2011
Posts: 290

Wait till you're squatting 315+ for reps and deadlifting 405+ for reps. I can guarantee that you will looks completely different. Just keep your training heavy and eat just a little bit less if you are worried about fat gain.

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ineedskins
Level

Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85

Since then ive lost 20 lbs, im still pretty fat. My "tire" is since large :( .

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