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Do or Don't Go to Failure w/ 1-6 RM?
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Bull_Scientist
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Join date: Apr 2012
Posts: 257

I know that you usually don't want to go to failure on any of your sets, especially with moderate to heavy resistance, as it could otherwise make it hard for your CNS to recover, lead to excessive joint compression, injuries, as well as CNS burnout in the long-term. Yet, when you are lifting weights within your 1-6 RM range then aren't you supposed to lift to failure in order to exert your nervous system as much as possible and try to give everything you got?

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Geneza
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Join date: Mar 2013
Posts: 22

Yeah ,i trained till failure every set and rest between 5-7 min ,sometimes even 10 and my strength greatly increases and still increases.

I cant image a training without failure ,is like "not training heavy" or is like "i dont want to get stronger so i wont give my best"

I cant image how lot of powerlifters dont train till failure ,some legendary powerlifters too ,i dont understand this concept? or it will be different when you manage very heavy weigths, like 4x your bodyweight and so on ,then failure will kill you probably there! ,thats why i even asked about failure as well

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Angus1
Level 4

Join date: Jun 2011
Posts: 288

Bull_Scientist wrote:
I know that you usually don't want to go to failure on any of your sets, especially with moderate to heavy resistance, as it could otherwise make it hard for your CNS to recover, lead to excessive joint compression, injuries, as well as CNS burnout in the long-term. Yet, when you are lifting weights within your 1-6 RM range then aren't you supposed to lift to failure in order to exert your nervous system as much as possible and try to give everything you got?

No, that's actually the other way around. Some of the strongest guys on the planet never train to failure on their main lifts. Missing lifts is something to avoid.

Training to failure on things like pullups, one arm dumbbell rows, dumbbell lateral raises or incline dumbbell curls for example are fine though. Generally speaking you only go all out on the final set but plenty of people make great gains without ever going to failure.

I once asked Eric Cressy about a program of his and asked whether we were suppose to take a ramp to failure and his reply was he doesn't believe any set should ever be taken to failure. Dave Tate on the other hand does like to train to failure so as you can see it's not a simple answer and different coaches and lifters have differing opinions.

Edit: I should note when I said Dave Tate likes to train to failure I am referring to accessory lifts such as doing an all out set of 20 on leg press for example. He's not going to go to failure on a 3 RM squat. I can't think of a single lifter who does.

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BCP27
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Join date: Mar 2013
Posts: 91

Geneza wrote:
Yeah ,i trained till failure every set and rest between 5-7 min ,sometimes even 10 and my strength greatly increases and still increases.

I cant image a training without failure ,is like "not training heavy" or is like "i dont want to get stronger so i wont give my best"

I cant image how lot of powerlifters dont train till failure ,some legendary powerlifters too ,i dont understand this concept? or it will be different when you manage very heavy weigths, like 4x your bodyweight and so on ,then failure will kill you probably there! ,thats why i even asked about failure as well


According to Overcoming Gravity, training to failure only produces barely more muscle mass increase after you recover, but the actual time it takes to recover totally negates that slight increase when compared to training to near failure.

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Geneza
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Join date: Mar 2013
Posts: 22

BCP27 wrote:
Geneza wrote:
Yeah ,i trained till failure every set and rest between 5-7 min ,sometimes even 10 and my strength greatly increases and still increases.

I cant image a training without failure ,is like "not training heavy" or is like "i dont want to get stronger so i wont give my best"

I cant image how lot of powerlifters dont train till failure ,some legendary powerlifters too ,i dont understand this concept? or it will be different when you manage very heavy weigths, like 4x your bodyweight and so on ,then failure will kill you probably there! ,thats why i even asked about failure as well


According to Overcoming Gravity, training to failure only produces barely more muscle mass increase after you recover, but the actual time it takes to recover totally negates that slight increase when compared to training to near failure.


So it have nothing to do with strength?
If you want to gain strength you have to train heavy ,you probably cant avoid failure unless you do like 90% 3 reps knowing you can do 5-6 or 1 rep knowing you can do 3-4, but why not 1 if you can 2 or 2 if you can 3 ,almost to failure ,this should be way better ,also on last set probably worth a 1-2 reps till failure with above 95% of 1RM

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Angus1
Level 4

Join date: Jun 2011
Posts: 288

Geneza wrote:
BCP27 wrote:
Geneza wrote:
Yeah ,i trained till failure every set and rest between 5-7 min ,sometimes even 10 and my strength greatly increases and still increases.

I cant image a training without failure ,is like "not training heavy" or is like "i dont want to get stronger so i wont give my best"

I cant image how lot of powerlifters dont train till failure ,some legendary powerlifters too ,i dont understand this concept? or it will be different when you manage very heavy weigths, like 4x your bodyweight and so on ,then failure will kill you probably there! ,thats why i even asked about failure as well


According to Overcoming Gravity, training to failure only produces barely more muscle mass increase after you recover, but the actual time it takes to recover totally negates that slight increase when compared to training to near failure.


So it have nothing to do with strength?
If you want to gain strength you have to train heavy ,you probably cant avoid failure unless you do like 90% 3 reps knowing you can do 5-6 or 1 rep knowing you can do 3-4, but why not 1 if you can 2 or 2 if you can 3 ,almost to failure ,this should be way better ,also on last set probably worth a 1-2 reps till failure with above 95% of 1RM


Training to failure has nothing to do with gaining strength in fact it would most likely set your potential strength gains back.

Strength is gained by progressive overload.
Strength trainers periodize their training into blocks also known as cycles. Blocks are usually anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks in length.
The idea is at the end of the cycle you have hit a new rep PR.

Here is just one example of how it looks for Deadlifts. This is a simple method that Andy Bolten uses.
The lifter in this example has a 5RM of 195kgs.

Take around 5 or 6 sets to ramp up to the final set.

Week 1. 175kg x5
Week 2. 180kg x5
Week 3. 185kg x5
Week 4. 190kg x5
Week 5. 195kg x5
Week 6. 200kg x5 New 5RM PR.
Week 7. Start a new block/cycle and rep range could also change to 3.

Some lifters vary their reps weekly, some do it over a longer period such as 2 or 3 weeks and some keep the reps the same as in this example. This was just a basic example of how to gain strength.
Another key factor is to note that these lighter weeks may appear easy on paper but they should be done with perfect technique and acceleration.


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sexyxe
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Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 626

If I am going for a 1-5RM I chose or work up to a weight I can do for that many reps. It isn't a case of failing but the final rep should be a grind IMO. Failing isn't something you should be aiming for on big lifts.

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Geneza
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Join date: Mar 2013
Posts: 22

Angus1 wrote:
Geneza wrote:
BCP27 wrote:
Geneza wrote:
Yeah ,i trained till failure every set and rest between 5-7 min ,sometimes even 10 and my strength greatly increases and still increases.

I cant image a training without failure ,is like "not training heavy" or is like "i dont want to get stronger so i wont give my best"

I cant image how lot of powerlifters dont train till failure ,some legendary powerlifters too ,i dont understand this concept? or it will be different when you manage very heavy weigths, like 4x your bodyweight and so on ,then failure will kill you probably there! ,thats why i even asked about failure as well


According to Overcoming Gravity, training to failure only produces barely more muscle mass increase after you recover, but the actual time it takes to recover totally negates that slight increase when compared to training to near failure.


So it have nothing to do with strength?
If you want to gain strength you have to train heavy ,you probably cant avoid failure unless you do like 90% 3 reps knowing you can do 5-6 or 1 rep knowing you can do 3-4, but why not 1 if you can 2 or 2 if you can 3 ,almost to failure ,this should be way better ,also on last set probably worth a 1-2 reps till failure with above 95% of 1RM


Training to failure has nothing to do with gaining strength in fact it would most likely set your potential strength gains back.

Strength is gained by progressive overload.
Strength trainers periodize their training into blocks also known as cycles. Blocks are usually anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks in length.
The idea is at the end of the cycle you have hit a new rep PR.

Here is just one example of how it looks for Deadlifts. This is a simple method that Andy Bolten uses.
The lifter in this example has a 5RM of 195kgs.

Take around 5 or 6 sets to ramp up to the final set.

Week 1. 175kg x5
Week 2. 180kg x5
Week 3. 185kg x5
Week 4. 190kg x5
Week 5. 195kg x5
Week 6. 200kg x5 New 5RM PR.
Week 7. Start a new block/cycle and rep range could also change to 3.

Some lifters vary their reps weekly, some do it over a longer period such as 2 or 3 weeks and some keep the reps the same as in this example. This was just a basic example of how to gain strength.
Another key factor is to note that these lighter weeks may appear easy on paper but they should be done with perfect technique and acceleration.




What's that suppose to mean?
5 reps is like 90% of 1RM ,can strength increases that fast by using only 90% of your strength and not training to failure?

Why so many weeks of 5 reps? I guess the 5-3-1 works better but so far i only used random 5-3-2-3-2 ,something like this (to failure also), good progress indeed ,not stall ,but who knows ,i will see about this ,i still can't understand the "strength" concept ,all i can think is give my best ,train to failure and so on...

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sexyxe
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Join date: Dec 2011
Posts: 626

5rm is closer to 85%. A typical 3rm is around 90%.

That is just an example of a progression program using sub maximal weights. From what I've read of your posts Geneza, you just need to keep reading and do it with an open mind too. A fair few of your questions have been answered but you're stuck in 'what you know' and don't appear to be open to new ideas.

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Geneza
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Join date: Mar 2013
Posts: 22

sexyxe wrote:
5rm is closer to 85%. A typical 3rm is around 90%.

That is just an example of a progression program using sub maximal weights. From what I've read of your posts Geneza, you just need to keep reading and do it with an open mind too. A fair few of your questions have been answered but you're stuck in 'what you know' and don't appear to be open to new ideas.


I know too less ,thats why i want to ask more things since im new in the powerlifting thing ,it doesnt look easy as it sounds

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Angus1
Level 4

Join date: Jun 2011
Posts: 288

Geneza wrote:
Angus1 wrote:
Geneza wrote:
BCP27 wrote:
Geneza wrote:
Yeah ,i trained till failure every set and rest between 5-7 min ,sometimes even 10 and my strength greatly increases and still increases.

I cant image a training without failure ,is like "not training heavy" or is like "i dont want to get stronger so i wont give my best"

I cant image how lot of powerlifters dont train till failure ,some legendary powerlifters too ,i dont understand this concept? or it will be different when you manage very heavy weigths, like 4x your bodyweight and so on ,then failure will kill you probably there! ,thats why i even asked about failure as well


According to Overcoming Gravity, training to failure only produces barely more muscle mass increase after you recover, but the actual time it takes to recover totally negates that slight increase when compared to training to near failure.


So it have nothing to do with strength?
If you want to gain strength you have to train heavy ,you probably cant avoid failure unless you do like 90% 3 reps knowing you can do 5-6 or 1 rep knowing you can do 3-4, but why not 1 if you can 2 or 2 if you can 3 ,almost to failure ,this should be way better ,also on last set probably worth a 1-2 reps till failure with above 95% of 1RM


Training to failure has nothing to do with gaining strength in fact it would most likely set your potential strength gains back.

Strength is gained by progressive overload.
Strength trainers periodize their training into blocks also known as cycles. Blocks are usually anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks in length.
The idea is at the end of the cycle you have hit a new rep PR.

Here is just one example of how it looks for Deadlifts. This is a simple method that Andy Bolten uses.
The lifter in this example has a 5RM of 195kgs.

Take around 5 or 6 sets to ramp up to the final set.

Week 1. 175kg x5
Week 2. 180kg x5
Week 3. 185kg x5
Week 4. 190kg x5
Week 5. 195kg x5
Week 6. 200kg x5 New 5RM PR.
Week 7. Start a new block/cycle and rep range could also change to 3.

Some lifters vary their reps weekly, some do it over a longer period such as 2 or 3 weeks and some keep the reps the same as in this example. This was just a basic example of how to gain strength.
Another key factor is to note that these lighter weeks may appear easy on paper but they should be done with perfect technique and acceleration.




What's that suppose to mean?
5 reps is like 90% of 1RM ,can strength increases that fast by using only 90% of your strength and not training to failure?

Why so many weeks of 5 reps? I guess the 5-3-1 works better but so far i only used random 5-3-2-3-2 ,something like this (to failure also), good progress indeed ,not stall ,but who knows ,i will see about this ,i still can't understand the "strength" concept ,all i can think is give my best ,train to failure and so on...

I used 5 reps as a simple example. I could have used 3 reps as an example or I could have given another example where the rep range comes down every 2or 3 weeks over a longer cycle which is how Eddie Coan trains but that wasn't the point of my post.

I was merely trying to get across to you that it is the progressive overload part that is important. Adding weight to the bar over a fixed period of time. You can't keep adding weight to the bar though so that is why cycles or blocks are used. On the lighter weeks you use greater acceleration. Acceleration is vital for strength training.

You like to bring up percentages of 1RM but that isn't necessary at all. In the example I used the weights are already pre determined. That whole 6 week block is already worked out before you even get to the gym.

It sounds like you have a lot of reading to do. If you are new to weight training then you will make strength gains no matter what you do but it is still wise to follow a well thought out program or method. Just going to the gym and training to failure as you say will be very short lived. You will stall, get burnt out and may in fact actually lose strength.

There is plenty of good information on this web site alone for you to search through. It can be confusing at first but once you get into the gym and actually start using the methods from the coaches here and you will soon see for yourself.

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AnytimeJake
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Join date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1825

I personaly train my lifts short of failure ( squat, bench, deads) 5x5 or 10x3 somthing like that keeping a rep or two in the tank, adding weight when possible. I train my body parts to failure ( bi's, shoulders, Quads) 3x10-15. I guess mabey you could say I take my isolation exercises to failure. This is how I've trained roughly for twenty years, injury free, don't know about the science, this is just what feels right to me. 2cents

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Angus1
Level 4

Join date: Jun 2011
Posts: 288

Geneza wrote:
Angus1 wrote:
Geneza wrote:
BCP27 wrote:
Geneza wrote:












What's that suppose to mean?
5 reps is like 90% of 1RM ,can strength increases that fast by using only 90% of your strength and not training to failure?

Why so many weeks of 5 reps? I guess the 5-3-1 works better but so far i only used random 5-3-2-3-2 ,something like this (to failure also), good progress indeed ,not stall ,but who knows ,i will see about this ,i still can't understand the "strength" concept ,all i can think is give my best ,train to failure and so on...

Exactly what are you calling failure?
I'm trying hard to imagine how you can train a squat to failure. Does someone actually physically help you lift the last rep? Or are you saying you lift until you can no longer do a full rep by yourself without someone helping you?
If it's the latter then that's how most people lift.

Some people may grind out 1 last rep or 2 occasionally and that is beneficial as it teaches you how to dig deep as if in a meet but that is really only done occasionally such as when going for a new rep PR.

A lot of lifters will stop short of this and stop the set when good form is gone. This is especially true with squats. If you keep squatting and your form has turned to shit and you can't maintain an arch in your back you will get injured.

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Field
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Join date: Oct 2011
Posts: 529

Just depends on how frequently you want to train certain exercises and body parts.
Depends on how shtty , sore and blasted you want to feel outside of the gym.
Id rather lift often and feel decent outside of the gym.
Have some snap to your step.

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RampantBadger
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Join date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2227

Don't.

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