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T NATION
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What Force Factor Are You Missing?
by Nate Green
06/21/10
Want bigger muscles and more power? The stretch-shortening cycle can be your best friend or your biggest enemy depending on your body type and gym experience.
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bjaffe
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Shouldn't test two for the lower body finish with: "If you jump farther WITHOUT the box, you're not efficient at using the SSC"?
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Tyler_42
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if your trying to boost your athletic performance(for football) should you focus more on working the ssc or not?
i know...i know you should obviously train your weakness, but say your somewhat balanced what should you focus on?
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Christian Thibaudeau
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Tyler_42 wrote:
if your trying to boost your athletic performance(for football) should you focus more on working the ssc or not?
i know...i know you should obviously train your weakness, but say your somewhat balanced what should you focus on?
Speed positions (WRs, DBs, RBs, OLB, Rush ends) should focus more on SSC (if they are already balanced).
Strength positions (OLs, DTs) should focus more on muscle strength (also provided that they are balanced to start with).
Hybrid positions (FBs, ILBs, TEs) should use a equal mix of both.
Quarterbacks and kickers should play poker next to the water fountain and leave the heavy lifting to the real athletes :)
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toots27mkc
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EXCELLENT ARTICLE. I SAVED IT FOR LAST WHEN I SAW IT WAS FROM THIB.
THANKS AGAIN THIB FOR MORE AWESOME TRAINING INFO. TIME TO TAKE THIS KNOWLEDGE TO THE GYM. . .
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Vires Eternus
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Now I get why the odd tempo changes are there in some of the iBB videos. (example, dips) I probably sound dumb, but I honestly never thought of changing the tempo of reps between reps in a set. I would have assumed there would be no difference in stimulus.
Reading this article, I realize that I don't really 'use my muscles'. I'm very efficient at SSC. I don't press from pins in a rack because I'm embarrased at how much less strength I have that way. Thanks for encouraging me to see it as an opportunity for growth.
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silkyhorse
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I do both regular and pinned benchpress, and I press a lot more when doing it with the pins. This article will really help me out with balancing "the use of muscles" and the use of "SSC".
Thanks, Chris!
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AHA
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Intriguing. It's neat that you can be SSC-dominant in the lower body and the other way around in the upper body (or vice versa). That's gotta be quite common, I'm thinking.
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andrew_live
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Test two: Depth jump to broad jump
Set up a box that's at knee-height. Stack some aerobics steps if you need to. "Drop" off the box to the floor, then immediately jump forward as far as you can. Measure how far you jumped.
Remove the box, stand in the same spot, and try the broad jump again. If you jump farther from the box, you're not efficient at using the SSC.
this seems backwards to me. Wouldnt you get to rely more on muscle elasticity if you jump/drop off the box? It just doesnt sound like its carrying over the logic from the pin press.
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Mutsanah
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Great article, guys - not the best photos - who took them? Grainy, bad angle and lighting...
We know you got skills, lets seem em
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bjaffe
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andrew_live wrote:
Test two: Depth jump to broad jump
Set up a box that's at knee-height. Stack some aerobics steps if you need to. "Drop" off the box to the floor, then immediately jump forward as far as you can. Measure how far you jumped.
Remove the box, stand in the same spot, and try the broad jump again. If you jump farther from the box, you're not efficient at using the SSC.
this seems backwards to me. Wouldnt you get to rely more on muscle elasticity if you jump/drop off the box? It just doesnt sound like its carrying over the logic from the pin press.
It is backward. I asked about that as soon as the article went up but didn't get a response. I am pretty sure it was just a wording error, but hopefully it is corrected. A lot of people reading these articles are being introduced to these concepts for the first time and are going to learn things wrong.
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popupwindow
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Excellent article, although I'm not sure about the lower body test. Wouldn't the broad jump (without a box) use the stretch reflex as you bend your knees just prior to jumping? Or are we supposed to jump without the pre-bend of the knees which would feel very un-natural? Would a front squat vs. a front squat from the bottom position (pins) be a better test?
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andrew_live
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^ hahahah I thought I was crazy.
I liked the photos though....the Biotest gym eh? Is there a secret knock to get in?
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oinky222
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wow that was a really great article. i think everyone here would definitely enjoy much more articles from thib
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goryo13
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this is good sh!t. i tried using the pins for bench to sorta give my cns a buzz, doing regular bench was a lot of breeze. the i, bb protocol is awesome! thanks TN and thibs!
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The Mighty Stu
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andrew_live wrote:
^ hahahah I thought I was crazy.
I liked the photos though....the Biotest gym eh? Is there a secret knock to get in?
`
Tim really picked out great equipment (nothing really unnecessary) to have on hand. I always like to imagine how I might one day stock my ultimate dream home gym, and after seeing (and training at) Biotest's in house set up, I now know exactly what I'd want -lol.
Oh yeah, in regard to the actual article (almost forgot!)... Christian talked about this last Fall after seeing the differences in Nate, ACTrain and myself and where we were naturally stronger, and resultingly, what areas we needed to work on. Nate was described (quite fitingly I might add), as an athlete, in that his body works as a unit, and he makes use of (if not relies on) the stretch relex in his actions (in his exercises).
ACTrain was the opposite, and was naturally more powerful at generating explosive force from dead stop work. I fell right in the middle of the spectrum, equally adept in both areas. I don't think anyone could have asked for a better example to illustrate Christian's thinking.
S
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toots27mkc
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andrew_live wrote:
Test two: Depth jump to broad jump
Set up a box that's at knee-height. Stack some aerobics steps if you need to. "Drop" off the box to the floor, then immediately jump forward as far as you can. Measure how far you jumped.
Remove the box, stand in the same spot, and try the broad jump again. If you jump farther from the box, you're not efficient at using the SSC.
this seems backwards to me. Wouldnt you get to rely more on muscle elasticity if you jump/drop off the box? It just doesnt sound like its carrying over the logic from the pin press.
I don't think it's backwards. I think it activates a more powerful stretch when you drop from the box, as you are already accelerating at the beginning of the knee/hip flex.
When it says farther from the box, it means length from box jumped starting from on top box, whereas the other means length from box jumped NOT starting from on top box. (The box could be in the way when you jump forward.)
Essentially, you are doing the same thing. . . but from the box means you start higher to perform your long jump, activating a more powerful stretch.
I may have just typed a bunch of senseless bullshit, but I don't think they made a mistake.
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MeltedFace
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andrew_live wrote:
Test two: Depth jump to broad jump
Set up a box that's at knee-height. Stack some aerobics steps if you need to. "Drop" off the box to the floor, then immediately jump forward as far as you can. Measure how far you jumped.
Remove the box, stand in the same spot, and try the broad jump again. If you jump farther from the box, you're not efficient at using the SSC.
this seems backwards to me. Wouldnt you get to rely more on muscle elasticity if you jump/drop off the box? It just doesnt sound like its carrying over the logic from the pin press.
That's exactly what he's saying.
I believe "Remove the box" meant "Remove the box from the equation, but still use it as a frame of reference."
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PB Andy
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Thib, any use for including dead-start work with Olympic lifters? Pretty much everything they do uses the SSC, except the pulls from the ground. I'd assume not, and to continue to be SSC allstars.
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bjaffe
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MeltedFace wrote:
andrew_live wrote:
Test two: Depth jump to broad jump
Set up a box that's at knee-height. Stack some aerobics steps if you need to. "Drop" off the box to the floor, then immediately jump forward as far as you can. Measure how far you jumped.
Remove the box, stand in the same spot, and try the broad jump again. If you jump farther from the box, you're not efficient at using the SSC.
this seems backwards to me. Wouldnt you get to rely more on muscle elasticity if you jump/drop off the box? It just doesnt sound like its carrying over the logic from the pin press.
That's exactly what he's saying.
I believe "Remove the box" meant "Remove the box from the equation, but still use it as a frame of reference."
This is turning into a joke and one of the authors or contributors to the article needs to correct it. This isn't jump as far as you can from the top of the box, or jump over the box as far as you can. This is just a drop from x height (in this case knee height) landing and doing a max vertical or broad jump (in this case a broad jump). Using the box as a frame of reference is tricky...you just have to make sure you measure distance from the spot you jumped. I would say to do the drop jump and measure your broad jump from the floor where you landed after the drop, and then make sure you measure your jump without the box the same way. I think that's what was meant by MeltedFace. Video of the tests would have been great here. This is a standard way of determining if someone is a more reactive jumper versus a strength jumper.
People who rely on strength will go much further without doing a drop jump. People who can squat a lot, but can't run fast or jump high fall in this category. People who rely on the stretch shortening cycle are more reactive jumpers. You all know these people. They can run fast and jump high, but are relatively weak. Another test is to do three vertical jumps in a row. People who rely on strength will lose significant height with each jump. People who are reactive won't lose much if any height, and usually jump higher on the subsequent jumps.
To summarize...the article should have stated: "If you jump farther WITHOUT the box, you're not efficient at using the SSC"?
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MikeTheBear
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PB Andy wrote:
Thib, any use for including dead-start work with Olympic lifters? Pretty much everything they do uses the SSC, except the pulls from the ground. I'd assume not, and to continue to be SSC allstars.
Good question and one that I thought of asking as well. In my own training, I like doing snatch-grip deads just because it's such a good exercise on its own.
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Christian Thibaudeau
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AHA wrote:
Intriguing. It's neat that you can be SSC-dominant in the lower body and the other way around in the upper body (or vice versa). That's gotta be quite common, I'm thinking.
Yes quite... but it's mostly a learned thing from training mostly for aesthetics for the upper body and doing more athletic stuff with your lower body.
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Christian Thibaudeau
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Mutsanah wrote:
Great article, guys - not the best photos - who took them? Grainy, bad angle and lighting...
We know you got skills, lets seem em
They are video captures. Probably affects the quality.
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Christian Thibaudeau
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popupwindow wrote:
Excellent article, although I'm not sure about the lower body test. Wouldn't the broad jump (without a box) use the stretch reflex as you bend your knees just prior to jumping? Or are we supposed to jump without the pre-bend of the knees which would feel very un-natural? Would a front squat vs. a front squat from the bottom position (pins) be a better test?
The jump test actually uses 3 jumps:
1. Regular long jump (with countermovement/dip)
2. Long jump FROM a box (as in SEATED ON THE BOX with the same leg angle as during a regular jump)
3. Depth long jump (standing on a box, dropping to the floor and jumping forward)
Someone who is VERY efficient at utilizing the stretch reflex AND the muscles will have a depth jump significantly longer than the two others.
Someone who is efficient at utilizing the SSC but lacks strength will have a regular jump significantly longer than the two others.
Someone who is not efficient at utilizing the SSC but somewhat efficient at using his muscles will have a jump seated on a box equal to the regular jump and equal or even longer than his depth jump.
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Christian Thibaudeau
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oinky222 wrote:
wow that was a really great article. i think everyone here would definitely enjoy much more articles from thib
They're coming! I sent 4-5 to Tim recently.
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