Join date: Nov 2009
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 169
awesome work, i love these articles.
considering the high rectus activations of chins and leg raises, i suspect that L-sit chins may score extremely high. was the 5 rep with strict form a limiting factor in including them, or are they just not a common exercise?
Join date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 3534
As a person who has always done a ton of chins but had some pretty unattractive abs, I have to see you're doing injustice recommending chins for ab work. I understand those were the EMG results but I think it would be more effective to try and figure out how those results came about then recommending it as an ab exercise. As you said we've all had sore abs from ab wheels, very few..Me Never have had sore abs from chins.
One possibility is maybe a muscle in a superstretched position gives a higher EMG reading and being that gravity is pulling at it during chinups it would lead to a higher score. Just a random thought.
Airtruth wrote:
As a person who has always done a ton of chins but had some pretty unattractive abs, I have to see you're doing injustice recommending chins for ab work. I understand those were the EMG results but I think it would be more effective to try and figure out how those results came about then recommending it as an ab exercise. As you said we've all had sore abs from ab wheels, very few..Me Never have had sore abs from chins.
One possibility is maybe a muscle in a superstretched position gives a higher EMG reading and being that gravity is pulling at it during chinups it would lead to a higher score. Just a random thought.
Soreness does not equate to muscle size. I'm pretty sure that concept has been beaten to death. Regardless, I know CT mentioned that regional soreness is a good sign, but you don't need soreness to have development.
You also have to account for how you're doing chins. The problem is that a chin-up can be an exercise, I think, that can allow other muscles to compensate. I've seen guys who never do direct ab work and feel that their chin ups and squats are what caused their great abs.
Also, genetics. You may not be genetically predisposed to having a great set of abs or you may have to do more. There are a ton of factors that could make my post huge but I think you get the idea.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
Airtruth wrote:
As a person who has always done a ton of chins but had some pretty unattractive abs, I have to see you're doing injustice recommending chins for ab work. I understand those were the EMG results but I think it would be more effective to try and figure out how those results came about then recommending it as an ab exercise. As you said we've all had sore abs from ab wheels, very few..Me Never have had sore abs from chins.
One possibility is maybe a muscle in a superstretched position gives a higher EMG reading and being that gravity is pulling at it during chinups it would lead to a higher score. Just a random thought.
If your abs are in a superstretched position in a chin up then you are right, the abs aren't working much.
Most people either do chin ups with an excessive arch or with hip flexion. You get the most abdominal activation when you stabilize the core - something that many people cannot do. I believe that this method makes the chin up an excellent abdominal exercise and an excellent dynamic anti-extension core stabilization exercise, especially if you have big legs like me (which makes it more challenging). Here's a video that illustrates the concept.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
get-it-done wrote:
awesome work, i love these articles.
considering the high rectus activations of chins and leg raises, i suspect that L-sit chins may score extremely high. was the 5 rep with strict form a limiting factor in including them, or are they just not a common exercise?
Sorry; just didn't think to do these. Add them to the list of "exercises I should have tested!"
Join date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 3534
Perpalicious wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
As a person who has always done a ton of chins but had some pretty unattractive abs, I have to see you're doing injustice recommending chins for ab work. I understand those were the EMG results but I think it would be more effective to try and figure out how those results came about then recommending it as an ab exercise. As you said we've all had sore abs from ab wheels, very few..Me Never have had sore abs from chins.
One possibility is maybe a muscle in a superstretched position gives a higher EMG reading and being that gravity is pulling at it during chinups it would lead to a higher score. Just a random thought.
Soreness does not equate to muscle size. I'm pretty sure that concept has been beaten to death. Regardless, I know CT mentioned that regional soreness is a good sign, but you don't need soreness to have development.
You also have to account for how you're doing chins. The problem is that a chin-up can be an exercise, I think, that can allow other muscles to compensate. I've seen guys who never do direct ab work and feel that their chin ups and squats are what caused their great abs.
Also, genetics. You may not be genetically predisposed to having a great set of abs or you may have to do more. There are a ton of factors that could make my post huge but I think you get the idea.
A majority of routines throughout the year I do chins and pullups 3x a week, other times 2, maybe a once per week a for a month or two. I do them various ways avg about 6 sets. Sometimes explosively, sometimes slow, with weight and without. I take my time and focus on specific muscles while I'm doing them. I'm not a chin-up king or anything but my point is I at least attempt to take note of the effect chinups would have on my abs. Noting this chinups does not have the greatest effect on abs.
While you do not need soreness for development, it's still one of the best indicators of what exercise is doing to you're body. Whether it's a change in reps, power, endurance, or angle acknowledging why you are sore will tell you more about your routine than anything. If you do crunches for a year, and get sore after one day from the ab wheel, safe to say certian ab muscles weren't getting hit as effectively.
If you're going to recommend people do chinups for abs, I just think you should offer more than a random emg test. If I got some weird type of reading from a scientific experiment, I'm going to research it a little deeper before reporting to my collegues that they take that as the way things should be.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]If you're going to recommend people do chinups for abs, I just think you should offer more than a random emg test. If I got some weird type of reading from a scientific experiment, I'm going to research it a little deeper before reporting to my collegues that they take that as the way things should be.[/quote]
Airtruth,
Not trying to be rude here, but by stating that your abs are "superstretched" in a chin up you indicated that you are in fact doing them in a manner that doesn't work your abs much. So you would be correct; chins aren't a good ab exercise because you are allowing your low back to hyperextend (which is the only way to stretch the abs).
Many people perform chin ups this way because they don't have the core strength to do them correctly (and safely). Some folks perform chin ups by swinging their legs upward and using hip flexion for momentum. Again, they don't have the core strength to do the exercise correctly.
If you do them correctly and keep the core tight, the chin up is an amazing core exercise for the lower abdominals. The larger your legs are, the more challenging the movement will be for the core as well. It may not make you sore and it may not make your abs burn, but the activation levels don't lie.
I don't need to research it a little deeper because I understand the biomechanics of core stability. Perhaps you should research it deeper before dismissing it? Again, not trying to be rude, just offering a suggestion.
Hey Bret i have a question about external obliques. I have a wide ilium or whatever its name. so my figure looks like a sand clock ( not so obvious ) and i wanted to know should i train my external obliques harder so they fill that area or should i gain mass on the lower part of lat? i hope this question makes sense
I can vouch for chins as an ab exercise. Instead of a weight belt I hold a heavy dumbbell between my feet. My abs certainly notice keeping that stable. Heavy standing overhead presses also usually get me. Shame you didn't test those.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
CAODEMARTE wrote:
I can only see the video for the bodysaw. Will the others referred to in the article be up soon?
Sorry, the video I had linked for the RKC plank is no longer up. The lady who agreed to let me use her video took it down. Strange! Just follow the advice in the article and you'll be fine.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
dodo888 wrote:
Hey Bret i have a question about external obliques. I have a wide ilium or whatever its name. so my figure looks like a sand clock ( not so obvious ) and i wanted to know should i train my external obliques harder so they fill that area or should i gain mass on the lower part of lat? i hope this question makes sense
I think you should do both! I have a similar issue with my physique.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
issues wrote:
I can vouch for chins as an ab exercise. Instead of a weight belt I hold a heavy dumbbell between my feet. My abs certainly notice keeping that stable. Heavy standing overhead presses also usually get me. Shame you didn't test those.
Yep, holding a dumbbell between the feet would increase the load on the abdominals. Good call. As for the overhead presses, "Lo Siento Mucho!"
Join date: Feb 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 3534
bretc wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
If you're going to recommend people do chinups for abs, I just think you should offer more than a random emg test. If I got some weird type of reading from a scientific experiment, I'm going to research it a little deeper before reporting to my collegues that they take that as the way things should be.
Airtruth,
Not trying to be rude here, but by stating that your abs are "superstretched" in a chin up you indicated that you are in fact doing them in a manner that doesn't work your abs much. So you would be correct; chins aren't a good ab exercise because you are allowing your low back to hyperextend (which is the only way to stretch the abs).
Many people perform chin ups this way because they don't have the core strength to do them correctly (and safely). Some folks perform chin ups by swinging their legs upward and using hip flexion for momentum. Again, they don't have the core strength to do the exercise correctly.
If you do them correctly and keep the core tight, the chin up is an amazing core exercise for the lower abdominals. The larger your legs are, the more challenging the movement will be for the core as well. It may not make you sore and it may not make your abs burn, but the activation levels don't lie.
I don't need to research it a little deeper because I understand the biomechanics of core stability. Perhaps you should research it deeper before dismissing it? Again, not trying to be rude, just offering a suggestion.
Don't worry I'm not taking this personal but I never said my abs are in a superstretched position when I do a chinup. I was simply stating a possible example as to why an emg can report a weird number.
If you fully understand the biomachanics of core stability then you are the only human being on the earth that does, everyone else has come close made correct/incorrect claims and learned from their mistakes then changed their mind 5 years later. One can not learn from their mistakes if they fully know everything already. While I have no problem with people making their claims and telling others what they believe, I do find it troublesome when recommending something new with simply an EMG and no hypothesis or devils advocate thought into why it would end up that way. What ends up happening is a trainee ends up following their off advice for 5 years when they could've done something else.
Why wait 5 years to say "hey I was wrong about something" when you can do it in a week. There's a quote in construction that goes measure twice cut once.
Bret, your articles are very interesting. I've always felt my abs work very hard on many exercises, (another one for you - cable tricep pushdown).
a typo - the writing under the curl picture say "The barbell curl just happens to be a pretty damn good ab exercise.". the article talks about lower back, which sounds correct to me..
How would you fix hip flexion during pullup? I have great abs, and yet somehow I always end performing some serious hip flexion with this exercise.
Also, that are these Tornado exercises? a search in google brings only your article! :)
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
Airtruth wrote:
If you fully understand the biomachanics of core stability then you are the only human being on the earth that does, everyone else has come close made correct/incorrect claims and learned from their mistakes then changed their mind 5 years later. One can not learn from their mistakes if they fully know everything already. While I have no problem with people making their claims and telling others what they believe, I do find it troublesome when recommending something new with simply an EMG and no hypothesis or devils advocate thought into why it would end up that way. What ends up happening is a trainee ends up following their off advice for 5 years when they could've done something else.
Why wait 5 years to say "hey I was wrong about something" when you can do it in a week. There's a quote in construction that goes measure twice cut once.
Well in that case all is good as I measured the core EMG activity of the chin up several times in order to make sure it wasn't a glitch. :)
At the end of the article I say, "based on the results of this experiment,..."
Are you suggesting that I omit and fail to report the data since it was surprising? That type of thinking certainly doesn't lead to innovation.
Are you suggesting that I write something like, "The chin up showed high levels of lower RA activity but obviously it's a glitch because everyone knows the chin up isn't a good ab exercise."? I wouldn't say that because I don't think that way.
Since the data came back the same way each time, rather than attempt to refute the data I tried to understand why it came out the way it did. I even went out to my garage and performed some chin ups while paying attention to how hard my lower abs were contracting. I hadn't realized it before, but my lower abs are rock hard during chin ups.
I gave my hypothesis in the article, yet you're stating that I didn't offer a hypothesis. All I try to do in these experiments is report the data and offer my analysis, expertise, and opinions. If you don't agree with them then that is your perogative. But my rationale makes perfect sense as performing a proper chin up requires an extremely intense contraction of the lower abdominals in order to prevent the lumbar spine from going into hyperextension.
You've got an extremely long lever arm in a dynamic setting where the body would prefer to contort itself at the hips or low back in order to make the exercise easier. The body also tries to keep half of the weight in front of the bar and half of the weight behind the bar to minimize the moment arm at the shoulder joint, which additionally challenges the core as it is easier to flex the hip than to maintain a straight line from the shoulders to the knees.
Your original hypothesis was that the abs are superstretched in a chin up which explains the high levels of activation. For the record, when the abs are superstretched as in the case of a powerlifting style bench press or a chin up with excessive lumbar hyperextension, the abs do not activate much and instead you see intense activation of the erector spinae, the muscles opposite the rectus abdominis.
It looks like we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Time will tell whether I'm right or wrong. But I've stated my position which is that the lower rectus abdominis receives a ton of activation when performing a chin up while maintaining a straight line from the shoulders to the knees and stabilizing the core.
dodo888 wrote:
Hey Bret i have a question about external obliques. I have a wide ilium or whatever its name. so my figure looks like a sand clock ( not so obvious ) and i wanted to know should i train my external obliques harder so they fill that area or should i gain mass on the lower part of lat? i hope this question makes sense
I think you should do both! I have a similar issue with my physique.
