Join date: Jul 2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 7
What about the vastus medius, rectus femoris, and vastus intermedius?
My medius and lateralis are in good shape, but I would like to see a way to "level the field," or, rather, unlevel the field as my legs don't have that rounded bulge and are more of a plateau than a rolling hill.
Hey Mr. Conteras can you explain the logic behind your emg studies as your sample size is of one person which is you. As Christian Thibaudeau said "There is no such thing as ''typical''. Each individual is different... different levers (limb and torso length), muscle balance, elastic vs. muscular dominance." Your glute is going to be a dominant muscle in all your leg lifts as opposed to somone without a history of glute activation. I just think your point of reference could be so much better if you had normative data on some kind of population :)
BTW no disrespect in my opinion all of you articles are great except for the emg ones.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
superhyphy wrote:
What about the vastus medius, rectus femoris, and vastus intermedius?
My medius and lateralis are in good shape, but I would like to see a way to "level the field," or, rather, unlevel the field as my legs don't have that rounded bulge and are more of a plateau than a rolling hill.
The vastis appear to contract in proportion with one another. Last year I did a test and the vastus lateralis and medialis elicited almost the exact proportions of MVC on every exercise I tested. However, I didn't test any exercises where the feet were turned in or out unfortunately.
nickj_777 wrote:
Hey Mr. Conteras can you explain the logic behind your emg studies as your sample size is of one person which is you. As Christian Thibaudeau said "There is no such thing as ''typical''. Each individual is different... different levers (limb and torso length), muscle balance, elastic vs. muscular dominance." Your glute is going to be a dominant muscle in all your leg lifts as opposed to somone without a history of glute activation. I just think your point of reference could be so much better if you had normative data on some kind of population :)
BTW no disrespect in my opinion all of you articles are great except for the emg ones.
I don't if Bret will respond but my take is it is just "food for thought". Are what is often assumed to be the best exercise for a given muscle group really the best? I'm sure he would love to get funded so he would have the time and resources to test lots of people of different body types, fitness levels, exercise variations, etc. It is a lot of variables and would be very time consuming to do on a large group of subjects.
I definitely see what you are saying about different people getting possibly quite different results. For instance, I was thinking that since he is fairly tall if he was using a medium to narrow stance on squats that might be why he found less quad activation then a front squat.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
nickj_777 wrote:
Hey Mr. Conteras can you explain the logic behind your emg studies as your sample size is of one person which is you. As Christian Thibaudeau said "There is no such thing as ''typical''. Each individual is different... different levers (limb and torso length), muscle balance, elastic vs. muscular dominance." Your glute is going to be a dominant muscle in all your leg lifts as opposed to somone without a history of glute activation. I just think your point of reference could be so much better if you had normative data on some kind of population :)
BTW no disrespect in my opinion all of you articles are great except for the emg ones.
No disrespect taken! This is a great question. I assumed the same thing but I've measured the EMG activity on four different individuals with an extensive list of exercises. This included a short person, a person of medium height, and two tall people. The similarities were surprising.
There's definitely individuality but most categories of exercises (squat patterns, deadlift patterns, bridge patterns) hold relatively constant from one individual to the next in terms of what works best for the various muscles.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
John Romaniello wrote:
Awesome video on the Scorcher. Miley Cyrus music in the background. My heart fluttered.
John, I swear on everything holy that I don't have a Miley Cyrus CD. It was simply playing on the radio while the video was taken. Please do not revoke my man-card!
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
GreenMountains wrote:
nickj_777 wrote:
Hey Mr. Conteras can you explain the logic behind your emg studies as your sample size is of one person which is you. As Christian Thibaudeau said "There is no such thing as ''typical''. Each individual is different... different levers (limb and torso length), muscle balance, elastic vs. muscular dominance." Your glute is going to be a dominant muscle in all your leg lifts as opposed to somone without a history of glute activation. I just think your point of reference could be so much better if you had normative data on some kind of population :)
BTW no disrespect in my opinion all of you articles are great except for the emg ones.
I don't if Bret will respond but my take is it is just "food for thought". Are what is often assumed to be the best exercise for a given muscle group really the best? I'm sure he would love to get funded so he would have the time and resources to test lots of people of different body types, fitness levels, exercise variations, etc. It is a lot of variables and would be very time consuming to do on a large group of subjects.
I definitely see what you are saying about different people getting possibly quite different results. For instance, I was thinking that since he is fairly tall if he was using a medium to narrow stance on squats that might be why he found less quad activation then a front squat.
I find having peak and mean numbers helpful also.
Thanks GreenMountains,
You are correct, these experiments and articles are great food-for-thought for lifters and trainers. You are also right about wishing I had the opportunity to be more extensive in my testing. As far as the front squat goes, I would have predicted increased quad activity as 1) I feel it more in my quads than back squats, and 2) I stay more upright.
Just goes to show you we can't simply rely on where we feel an exercise working for indicators of muscle activation.
nickj_777 wrote:
Hey Mr. Conteras can you explain the logic behind your emg studies as your sample size is of one person which is you. As Christian Thibaudeau said "There is no such thing as ''typical''. Each individual is different... different levers (limb and torso length), muscle balance, elastic vs. muscular dominance." Your glute is going to be a dominant muscle in all your leg lifts as opposed to somone without a history of glute activation. I just think your point of reference could be so much better if you had normative data on some kind of population :)
BTW no disrespect in my opinion all of you articles are great except for the emg ones.
No disrespect taken! This is a great question. I assumed the same thing but I've measured the EMG activity on four different individuals with an extensive list of exercises. This included a short person, a person of medium height, and two tall people. The similarities were surprising.
There's definitely individuality but most categories of exercises (squat patterns, deadlift patterns, bridge patterns) hold relatively constant from one individual to the next in terms of what works best for the various muscles.
Well I spoke too soon cause there you are.
I was checking out your videos on youtube. I wish I could buy one of those good bar pads where I live. I've tried wrapping a towel around the bar but it is just not the same.
Using the band pegs inside the power rack to loop a band looks like a good alternative to a barbell. I'll have to give that a try.
I really do find the hip thrust to be a great exercise to improve almost any other lower body lift or activity. Thanks.
Join date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 1110
bretc wrote:
John Romaniello wrote:
Awesome video on the Scorcher. Miley Cyrus music in the background. My heart fluttered.
John, I swear on everything holy that I don't have a Miley Cyrus CD. It was simply playing on the radio while the video was taken. Please do not revoke my man-card!
I have Cher on my workout mix. I'm in no position to revoke anyone's man card.
Join date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 234
bretc wrote:
John Romaniello wrote:
Awesome video on the Scorcher. Miley Cyrus music in the background. My heart fluttered.
John, I swear on everything holy that I don't have a Miley Cyrus CD. It was simply playing on the radio while the video was taken. Please do not revoke my man-card!
That happens if you listen to 96.9, that station is all over the place.
Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 2913
Interesting on the unilateral v bilateral. If this is the case, if there is more glute activation with bilateral, then what gets activated more with unilateral? It seems that the load has to be shifted somewhere, or is it the case of synergy?
Would single leg work be indicated if there is a noted discrepancy?
Great article series.
BTW, how would someone even know that Miley Cyrus in the background?
Join date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 239
Hey Bret,
Great article, surprising about the hamstring activation with rdls...Could the quad activation be higher on back squats because the load used was higher than the front squat load? Does every muscle get a higher EMG reading when the weight is increased (was the calf feedback surprising at all or were you expecting something different?)
I also have a question about the way the back extensions were executed. Do you squeeze your glutes throughout the entire movement or only at the completion of each rep?
Is this the last article in the series?
What's your favourite colour? :P
Join date: Nov 2002
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 93
Bret maybe i missed it but any test on leg press as a quad builder or how bout the soleus. seems like your measuring the participation of the gastroc in mostly bent knee exercises that from what i understand mainly involve soleus.
just seems like theyre a ton of variations of exercises tested that either most people rarely do or dont have access to the equipment.
and since this is directed toward bodybuilding and hypertrophy who out here is trying to get their Adductor Longis bigger? why test it a ridicoulous amount of time
no disrespect. all your other articles on the testing of muscle groups seemed to make sense and invariably some exercises will be left out. but for all the exercises tested in this one it just doesnt give much benefit
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
jp_dubya wrote:
Interesting on the unilateral v bilateral. If this is the case, if there is more glute activation with bilateral, then what gets activated more with unilateral? It seems that the load has to be shifted somewhere, or is it the case of synergy?
Would single leg work be indicated if there is a noted discrepancy?
Great article series.
BTW, how would someone even know that Miley Cyrus in the background?
The theory is that the lateral subsystem (abductor complex (glute medius, glute minimus, and TFL), contralateral quadratus lumborum, and ipsilateral adductor complex) will be forced into overdrive to provide stability in the frontal plane.
A very recent study found in the 2010 Journal of Sports Rehabilitation by McKurdy et. al lends support to this claim in terms of glute medius activation.
However, there are lots of factors to consider. For example, if an individual is forcefully spreading the floor and forcing the knees out he may activate more hip abductor muscle in double leg variations than in a single leg variations.
Furthermore, the directional load vector plays a role in muscle activation as well. In unilateral axial loaded movements you will see more quadratus lumborum activity (as evidenced by last year's research by Stuart McGill), whereas in unilateral anteroposterior loaded movements you will see more multifidi activity.
As for the Miley Cyrus song, it was playing in the background of the Skorcher band hip thrust video.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
thrasher_09 wrote:
Hey Bret,
Great article, surprising about the hamstring activation with rdls...Could the quad activation be higher on back squats because the load used was higher than the front squat load? Does every muscle get a higher EMG reading when the weight is increased (was the calf feedback surprising at all or were you expecting something different?)
I also have a question about the way the back extensions were executed. Do you squeeze your glutes throughout the entire movement or only at the completion of each rep?
Is this the last article in the series?
What's your favourite colour? :P
Well I used around the same % of load for the front and back squats to keep it fair. Since folks can back squat more than they can front squat it wouldn't be fair to use equal weight to compare the two. If equal weight was used, then I would expect more quad activity in the front squat.
The quads and hamstrings nearly always get increased activation as weight is increased (as long as form doesn't deteriorate as in the case of rounding one's back in a squat for instance).
But the glutes are unique in that beginners often see decreased glute activation as they go heavy due to compensation from the low back and hamstrings (and form deterioration in the form of lumbar hyperextension). You get surprisingly high activations in simple glute activation drills which plays a case for low-load glute activation drills. However, advanced folks like myself see higher levels of glute activation as the load gets heavier. This makes sense as there is increased correlation between hip strength and athleticism as you move from recreational to collegiate to professional sports.
I wrote something about the calves but for some reason it was edited out. I often wondered if pausing would increase activation (it didn't) and whether heavy squats led to high levels of calf activation (they did). So yes there were surprises!
I use glutes all the way through. Like this:
No, there is one more article in the series on the core. It will be a good one too! Hopefully they'll post in next week.
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
kg wrote:
Bret maybe i missed it but any test on leg press as a quad builder or how bout the soleus. seems like your measuring the participation of the gastroc in mostly bent knee exercises that from what i understand mainly involve soleus.
just seems like theyre a ton of variations of exercises tested that either most people rarely do or dont have access to the equipment.
and since this is directed toward bodybuilding and hypertrophy who out here is trying to get their Adductor Longis bigger? why test it a ridicoulous amount of time
no disrespect. all your other articles on the testing of muscle groups seemed to make sense and invariably some exercises will be left out. but for all the exercises tested in this one it just doesnt give much benefit
Geez, tough crowd!
1) The exercises I tested were limited to the equipment that I have in my garage. Last year I did a study wher I was able to test certain machines but I had to rent out a local gym after they closed to conduct my studies. Down the road I'll try to do more testing.
2) I agree in that I've never heard individuals want to build their adductors which I believe is stupid considering they make up 1/3 of the thigh mass (see attached Tom Platz pic). I see folks with big quads and no adductors and I know they have no athleticism or single leg strength plus they don't look nearly as good in a pair of boxers. However, my intention was to perform a set of Swiss ball adductor squeezes to show the increased adductor activation over conventional exercises because I've seen all sorts of strength coaches bash on direct adductor training. Perhaps the muscle activation would change some of their minds. But then I forgot to test that exercise. Doh!
3) I would have liked to have tested soleus activity but I didn't have access to a seated calf-raise machine.
Sorry! Hopefully down the road I'll do another study. I'll simply go through the article discussions for this article series and take notes from all the disgruntled readers. Then I'll write up a new article.
Join date: Nov 2002
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 93
no problem man. your articles like i said have been top notch. plus i didnt realize they were limited to exercises you had in your garage. in that case actually you did well to come up with some many different exercises!
Join date: Aug 2005
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 902
kg wrote:
no problem man. your articles like i said have been top notch. plus i didnt realize they were limited to exercises you had in your garage. in that case actually you did well to come up with some many different exercises!
Join date: Aug 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2217
bretc wrote:
Well I used around the same % of load for the front and back squats to keep it fair. Since folks can back squat more than they can front squat it wouldn't be fair to use equal weight to compare the two. If equal weight was used, then I would expect more quad activity in the front squat.
