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WantoBeHuge
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Join date: Apr 2012
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what are you opinions on training shoulders/bis vs back and bis or chest/bis?? i know theres a fatigue factor with back/bis but what about the other 2? much difference?

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Quasi-Tech
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hungry4more wrote:
Umm, I'm 5'8" and 200-205, and I certainly have a ways to go....please tell me you don't think it's impossible to get beyond my level at my height without drugs.



Basing that on the information gained using multiple resources online, seeing people's bodyweights here and years invested, and probably the fact that Stu, who is 5'8" and has been training for quite some time comes in at 205-210lbs in the off-season.

I suppose its based on what you consider a healthy weight, or healthy bodyfat percentage, that's not for me to decide, moreso assuming Stu is at a "healthy bodyfat percentage" off-season. There may be outliers, but there's a great deal supporting the information I've given.

Do you know anyone who weighs markedly more that is 100% verified clear of AS use? That is a genuine question as it would be something new to learn. I'll never profess to be the best or most knowledgeable, just basing my statements off of what data is available (both anecdotal and theoretical).

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xXSeraphimXx
Level 1

Join date: Sep 2007
Location: California, USA
Posts: 1613

Quasi-Tech wrote:
hungry4more wrote:
Umm, I'm 5'8" and 200-205, and I certainly have a ways to go....please tell me you don't think it's impossible to get beyond my level at my height without drugs.



Basing that on the information gained using multiple resources online, seeing people's bodyweights here and years invested, and probably the fact that Stu, who is 5'8" and has been training for quite some time comes in at 205-210lbs in the off-season.

I suppose its based on what you consider a healthy weight, or healthy bodyfat percentage, that's not for me to decide, moreso assuming Stu is at a "healthy bodyfat percentage" off-season. There may be outliers, but there's a great deal supporting the information I've given.

Do you know anyone who weighs markedly more that is 100% verified clear of AS use? That is a genuine question as it would be something new to learn. I'll never profess to be the best or most knowledgeable, just basing my statements off of what data is available (both anecdotal and theoretical).

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Quasi-Tech
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Don't see what the problem is with this discussion? Perhaps care to elaborate. The originator of this thread was asking a question about a healthy size/weight to obtain and did not mention running with gear. If you care to elaborate by all means, but otherwise the post is taking up space with no purpose.

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SMF
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Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 136

Slight hijack but relevant. Can you get to be 225 and fairly lean at 5'8"? Some people can, but far and few between. Most people don't train hard enough or eat enough, and it takes years. They are training their asses off and eating like fiends. They are not taking up other hobbies like mma.

So though it is possible it is not probable. This is not a jab at the op, just sick of this always coming up. Actually, this is kind of a jab to the people who always bring this up. Stop telling people things are not possible unless you use aas. It's just a downer, and it makes you look bad.

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BlueCollarTr8n
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Join date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 2845

SMF wrote:
Slight hijack but relevant. Can you get to be 225 and fairly lean at 5'8"? Some people can, but far and few between. Most people don't train hard enough or eat enough, and it takes years. They are training their asses off and eating like fiends. They are not taking up other hobbies like mma.


Twenty-five years ago I was told if a 'natty' can reach a lean 3.0lbs per inch of height, they would be in 1% territory. I have seen nothing since then that would cause me to question that as a 'rule of thumb'. I am talking beach ready, not stage ready. IMO....this should be the first goal for a natty.

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SMF
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 136

BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
SMF wrote:
Slight hijack but relevant. Can you get to be 225 and fairly lean at 5'8"? Some people can, but far and few between. Most people don't train hard enough or eat enough, and it takes years. They are training their asses off and eating like fiends. They are not taking up other hobbies like mma.


Twenty-five years ago I was told if a 'natty' can reach a lean 3.0lbs per inch of height, they would be in 1% territory. I have seen nothing since then that would cause me to question that as a 'rule of thumb'. I am talking beach ready, not stage ready. IMO....this should be the first goal for a natty.


I agree with you , and that's a good rule of thumb. Certainly most people don't reach that level either. But there are some guys out there who break that rule. My training partner is 5'9" and 220. He's been growing slowly over the last 15 years and he's beach ready. He's been training since he was 14 and now he's 41. Years...

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Professor X
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Join date: Oct 2002
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SMF wrote:
Slight hijack but relevant. Can you get to be 225 and fairly lean at 5'8"? Some people can, but far and few between. Most people don't train hard enough or eat enough, and it takes years. They are training their asses off and eating like fiends. They are not taking up other hobbies like mma.

So though it is possible it is not probable. This is not a jab at the op, just sick of this always coming up. Actually, this is kind of a jab to the people who always bring this up. Stop telling people things are not possible unless you use aas. It's just a downer, and it makes you look bad.


Agreed. It really serves no purpose aside from giving the person screaming it some justification for their own progress.

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SMF
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 136

BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
SMF wrote:
Slight hijack but relevant. Can you get to be 225 and fairly lean at 5'8"? Some people can, but far and few between. Most people don't train hard enough or eat enough, and it takes years. They are training their asses off and eating like fiends. They are not taking up other hobbies like mma.


Twenty-five years ago I was told if a 'natty' can reach a lean 3.0lbs per inch of height, they would be in 1% territory. I have seen nothing since then that would cause me to question that as a 'rule of thumb'. I am talking beach ready, not stage ready. IMO....this should be the first goal for a natty.


I agree with you , and that's a good rule of thumb. Certainly most people don't reach that level either. But there are some guys out there who break that rule. My training partner is 5'9" and 220. He's been growing slowly over the last 15 years and he's beach ready. He's been training since he was 14 and now he's 41. Years...

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Marzouk
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Join date: Jul 2009
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Posts: 3205

SMF wrote:
BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
SMF wrote:
Slight hijack but relevant. Can you get to be 225 and fairly lean at 5'8"? Some people can, but far and few between. Most people don't train hard enough or eat enough, and it takes years. They are training their asses off and eating like fiends. They are not taking up other hobbies like mma.


Twenty-five years ago I was told if a 'natty' can reach a lean 3.0lbs per inch of height, they would be in 1% territory. I have seen nothing since then that would cause me to question that as a 'rule of thumb'. I am talking beach ready, not stage ready. IMO....this should be the first goal for a natty.


I agree with you , and that's a good rule of thumb. Certainly most people don't reach that level either. But there are some guys out there who break that rule. My training partner is 5'9" and 220. He's been growing slowly over the last 15 years and he's beach ready. He's been training since he was 14 and now he's 41. Years...


I'm 5'10 and so a beach ready 210lbs for my height wouldn't be too difficult i don't think. Ye im overweight at the moment, a 1 or 2 years down the line i think it could be pretty achievable

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Quasi-Tech
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Join date: Apr 2012
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Posts: 1042

I like how this always defers to the guy who made the post must be insecure. I thought I stated in my post that it takes a long time to reach the upper end of size gain, that there may be outliers, but overall it would be incredibly rare to go beyond that level. I also stated that bodyfat percentage is a big variable, some are beach ready at 10% others at 12-15%, some even more... depends on where their body holds fat, the size of their frame, etc.

Stu, who I believe is in his mid-30's, comes in at the weight he's at, and he's a professional bodybuilder who eats like a fiend, trains hard year round, etc. I imagine his only limitation (and I have no proof of this, only conjecture) is that because he has to cut to such low bodyfat levels naturally, he may lose some of the muscle gained (not all obviously year to year but some). Someone else who does a bulk/cut but never goes that low won't have those issues.

I asked once and I'll ask again, does anyone have examples? As a lifter, I would rather have realistic goals in mind and if I exceed them, I can be proud and happy that I now know you can go beyond what is "popular/believed" in many circles. But its better to be realstic with slight pessimism, than to look at a pro bodybuilder and say, "I want to be that big." Guess its the difference between dreams and reality.

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caveman101
Level 2

Join date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Posts: 3469

but Stu will never lose muscle during a cut again

thanks to raspberry ketones

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SMF
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 136

Quasi-Tech wrote:
I like how this always defers to the guy who made the post must be insecure. I thought I stated in my post that it takes a long time to reach the upper end of size gain, that there may be outliers, but overall it would be incredibly rare to go beyond that level. I also stated that bodyfat percentage is a big variable, some are beach ready at 10% others at 12-15%, some even more... depends on where their body holds fat, the size of their frame, etc.

Stu, who I believe is in his mid-30's, comes in at the weight he's at, and he's a professional bodybuilder who eats like a fiend, trains hard year round, etc. I imagine his only limitation (and I have no proof of this, only conjecture) is that because he has to cut to such low bodyfat levels naturally, he may lose some of the muscle gained (not all obviously year to year but some). Someone else who does a bulk/cut but never goes that low won't have those issues.

I asked once and I'll ask again, does anyone have examples? As a lifter, I would rather have realistic goals in mind and if I exceed them, I can be proud and happy that I now know you can go beyond what is "popular/believed" in many circles. But its better to be realstic with slight pessimism, than to look at a pro bodybuilder and say, "I want to be that big." Guess its the difference between dreams and reality.



I just looked at this again and have to say I agree with your posts directed to the op. I should also say thank you for taking the time to point him in the right direction. Just frustrated with the aas comment. Too many people jump to that conclusion too soon. Maybe I would have asked him if he really knew what 5'8" lean really looked like. Most people don't know. If you have never stood next to a pro bodybuilder it's unbelievable. On stage they all look kind of normal because they are all next to each other. In real life around average size people they are a lot bigger than people think. From being in gyms and working in the industry I have become a little bit calloused. I have seen many people come and go (even just on this site). I would have told the op to go back and read some of the older articles. Read the Poliquin and King articles and some Berardi. All of his questions would be answered if he would read first. So again, thank you for helping him and helping me see I was being a little bit crusty. I'm 5'6" 185lbs and not quite beach ready but not too far off. I've gotten as high as 197lbs but was very uncomfortable and looked more like a beached whale. So, as for your examples, Marzouk and Hungryformore in this thread are not too far from it. As for famous people or competitors, I don't follow them.

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hungry4more
Level 2

Join date: Nov 2007
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 6723

Lol, sure 3 lbs per inch of height at beach body mode is top 1%....not top 1% genetic elite, top 1% as in the few amount of people who will ever train hard and consistently enough to get there. TBH, I'd estimate that's more like top .001% for dudes.

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FattyFat
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Join date: Apr 2008
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Posts: 1364

hungry4more wrote:
Umm, I'm 5'8" and 200-205, and I certainly have a ways to go....please tell me you don't think it's impossible to get beyond my level at my height without drugs.


Spot on.
But from what I've been reading about you on this site you're a hard worker and go sensibly about your training. It's something that simple (!=easy) most people don't grasp.

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BlueCollarTr8n
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Join date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 2845

hungry4more wrote:
........as in the few amount of people who will ever train hard and consistently enough to get there. TBH, I'd estimate that's more like top .001% for dudes.


Yes.....few people train at a level that does justice to the goals they claim to pursue.

You must do what others won't, to achive what others don't.

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Quasi-Tech
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Happy to see people understand what I was trying to say. Sometimes for all my verbage I am not as clear as I hope to be in my effort to explain.

We all know guys who walk into the gym and bench 315, squat 405, and pull 500lbs their first time there. These guys have a natural aptitude towards lifting and being big mofo's regardless of their height. Those are the outliers, the .01% with that gift.

You have another group who will run the proper diet, never miss a workout (even when sick or injured), and never break form their routine, and will more than likely be an outlier by a few pounds - again, the .01%.

For those who diet and work hard, cheat occasionally, miss a workout or two, and may not have access to or utilize all of the "secrets" of lifting, they can achieve a fine level of development that will make the average joe think he's "on" or a master of the iron. That would still be the 1%.

Aspire to be the best, and if you have the drive, see where you can go. Just be sure to stop back in these forums and share your journey, where you started, and where you got to, so others can learn from your blood, sweat, and tears along the way. We're all brothers in iron.

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