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Lat/Bi Training with HP Mass Program
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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Since I cannot afford I3G I am doing the HP Mass Program. Question for anyone, Today on the spill CT said that it is best to train the muscle groups often to reduce muscle soreness and your body spending a lot of time recovering and not building muscle.

With the HP Mass Program it is outlined to only work bi's and lats one day a week. When I do that they are usually sore. Not sure if its a good sore or a bad sore as in too sore, limiting my range of motion, etc. Should I change the program and do bi's and lats more often or keep the program as is? Any suggestions?

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Goodfellow
Level 1

Join date: Sep 2006
Location: England
Posts: 2642

jtbrown0511 wrote:
Since I cannot afford I3G I am doing the HP Mass Program.


This made me lol.

As for your question, if you don't want to do lats/bi's once a week then grab a pull up bar and a pair of dumbbells with changable weights and do a few sets of each every day.

With that said I doubt you'll see any noticeable difference in progress for your efforts.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Well I wish I could afford to buy I3G but in reality I cannot and I really enjoy the HP Mass Program so that is what I am sticking with. Thanks for the reply.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

The HPMass program is great, with or without I3G (as is every well designed program)

In regards to training the back, you should have read that the back responds well to Fatigue loading (In CT's experience), so that means inducing a fair amount of holds and stuff one day a week. Ways to increase this frequency are thus:

- Do a width workout on Wed (Vertical pulling), and a Thickness workout on Saturday (Horizontal pulling and traps)

- Sled work As desired (if you want to emphasize your back you can do this multiple days a week)

- Concentrated Loading Spec: Train different qualities of the back 3 days in a row, then rest for 4 days, then do it again the next week. The "Daryl Gee Project" has info/videos about how to do this, search for if interested. It would look like this

M - Strength work, PM Sled work
T - Structural work, PM Sled work
W - Strength and structural, PM Sled work
Th- Upper body pressing
Friday- Lower Pressing
Sat/Sunday: Free days to do more pressing work, athletic work, neural charge, etc...

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Thanks Lonnie. I think I will start with trying to do the vertical pulling on Wednesday and horizontal pulling on Saturday. That will probably work best for me. I do remember CT saying that the back does respond well to fatigue loading. Right now I am doing the Thib lat pulldown, straight arm pulldown, and usually a lat pulldown to the front of the body. I would like to start experimenting with doing front levers and iso holds that way. What exercises would you recommend for the width workout and thickness workout for back? Also could I split bi's up and do them on wednesday and saturdays as well?

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

From CT, taken from an old live spill( http://www.T-Nation.com/...ning-topics/680 ):

THICKNESS

SUPERSET A

A1. Face pull 4 x 8-10

A2. DB chest-supported rear delts raise 4 x 8-10

SUPERSET B

B1. Seated row to mid-sternum, hold peak contraction 2 seconds per rep 4 x 8-10

B2. Blast straps rear delts 4 x 8-10

C. Power high pull 5 x 4-6

D. Power shrugs 5 x 4-6

E. Strict shrugs 4 x 10-12 with 2 seconds hold at the top

F. One-arm barbell shrug to the side 4 x 6-8 per side

WIDTH
04-18-2011 16:30

TRIPLE SET A

A1. Rope straigth-arms pulldown 4 x 8-10

A2. Kneeling rope lat pulldown torso leaning forward, same weight x max reps

A3. Kneeling lat pulldown leaning back, same weight max reps

SUPERSET B

B1. Straight-arms pulldown with bar 4 x 8-10

B2. Stretcher row (from John Meadows) 4 x 8-10

SUPERSET C

C1. Low pulley straigth-arm pulldown with rope 4 x 8-10

C2. Low-pulley cable rowing with rope, same weight max reps


Just throw in some bicep work afterwards on each day. Or, check out these other spill by CT for some tips/tricks/ideas:

http://www.T-Nation.com/...ning-topics/556

http://www.T-Nation.com/...ning-topics/487

BTW - There is a HUGE number of old Training Labs that CT has written. At the top of the page, go to Training Lab ~> Indigo Project. Once there, Filter the search results under CT's name and read them. There are 6+ pages of GOLD in there.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Thanks again. I look forward to reading all of them and trying out those supersets. I'll let you know how they work.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

I can already tell you how they work ;-)

If you have access to them, you may want to play around with Bands and Rings as well. Check out some of the more prominent I3G logs to see how they are using them under CT's direction (holds, "scan and sweep" style, peak contraction, activation reps, etc...)

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Lonnie. Do you know when Biotest's trap bar and/or rings will be available for purchase?

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

No one does. The only thing that is slated to be released soon is there new "Brain Candy" supp.

The "Dead/Squat Bar" (trap bar) is in the works, but the spills have not lead anyone to believe that's its going to be available anytime soon.

The rings and T-Nation Prowler are also "in the works," but very little talk about them goes on at this point.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Ok that's all that I have seen so far too. I wish they would release the dead/squat bar. The gym I am working out at does not have one. And being from a small town in South Dakota I do not have much of an option as to what gym I go to.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

I dont think, by definition, anyone has a "Dead/Squat Bar" - Its going to be a T-Nation original based off of the Hex Bar/ Trap Bar. It will have unique modifications done to it is my understanding. Things like Fatter handles, angled handles, extended frame for more weight, and a system that prevents it from rotating forward/backward during the lift. Plus more, maybe??

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

Because I'm a nice guy, taken from todays spill:

- Chris Shugart: We're awaiting the final dead-squat bar (modified, custom trap bar) now. We'll then offer these at our store in the future. Same with rings, bands, and probably an improved version of the Prowler.

- Chris Shugart: Tim Patterson has several improvement ideas for the Prowler. He really knows his training equipment and had very high standards. I know that one thing he's going to fix is the tendency for the Prowler to "stick" in the front. It's also a little rattle-y. But he has much more in mind for it. It's incredible to see what he's doing to the good 'ol trap bar with his dead-squat bar.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

I did see that today and got pretty excited about getting an update on them. Looking forward to having a dead-squat bar. Quick question. I don't know what your expertise is in injuries but a month or so ago when doing olympic squats I was experiencing a sharp pain in my left trap/neck area. Any idea what would be causing this? I am taking some time off of squatting until it seems to heal up.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

I have ZERO experience with injuries. I know one of the guys on Elite FTS takes questions regarding them, try there.

http://asp.elitefts.net/...9857&tid=42 - That has the "how to ask a question" info, and then the link on the bottom to ask.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

I don't have much knowledge in that area either. Have you been doing the reverse bench press from pins at all? I think its hard to get the hang of. The reverse grip feels so weird and pressing the bar feels different.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

I havent, no. I tried it twice a few weeks ago when I was running the original HPMass program (amazing program, BTW) and didnt really "get it" I dont think. I wasnt able to use much weight despite the pins, and it didnt really feel great for me. Given that I switched over the 6WSH, I dropped it for the time being.

It is something I intend to focus more on when I get off of 6WSH and back to the HPMass template. My shoulder is a constant issue and CT says this is the most friendly of all the pressing movements on the shoulder, so I'm going to make a much better effort to nail it down.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Thats exactly why I wanted to use it. I have had aching pain in my side delt of my right shoulder off and on for years. It comes and goes and it is usually pain free when doing reverse grip bench press from pins. But the technique is tricky and same here I have to lower the weight quite a bit. It just seems so awkward pushing with the reverse grip. I love the template of the HP Mass program as well. I'm going to work at it and I think the form will come sooner or later.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Quick question on the back thickness and width exercises. I watched the video for the kneeling straight arm pulldown with rope. Can you explain the low pulley straight arm pulldown with rope to me? Is that standing? How low is the pulley supposed to be? And with the blast straps rear delts it says 4 x 6-8 per side. Isn't the blast straps rear delts the same exercise as the one used in the HP Mass program in the videos for the upper body pressing days? And one more question (sorry for all the questions). On the back thickness, it has superset A and B, which I understand, and then it has c, d, e, and f. Now is the c, d, e, and f done in a row together like a complex or no? Thanks in advance.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

JT - I actually started experimenting again with the RGBP from pins this week. I'm liking it alot now and actually will be subbing it out for my overload movement from here on out.

Spend the time to figure it out one day, I was actually able to build up to the same weight I was using for the regular Bench Press from Pins, with less shoulder strain. Winning.

I'm not exactly sure what the Low Pulley Straight Arm Pull Down is...I THINK that its just the same movement but done with the pulley on the bottom, so it has a different stress on the muscle.

Yes, the blast strap rear delts are one of the "staggered" movements from HPMass. Good exercise. I'm not sure why it says "per side" other than its just a mistake in the writing of the program. There are a couple of little things like that that appear to be "copy and paste" kind of mistakes.

CDEF are NOT done as a complex. Do all sets of C, then all sets of D, etc... Just keep the rest periods very short(30 seconds or less) and you'll blow right through it. You really dont need much time to recover from a shrug.

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Maybe I will go back and try it. I did read that RGBP doesn't do much for chest development so that was another reason i went away from it. My chest is one of my worst body parts. Seems like it doesn't grow worth anything. Any pointers or extra things I can be doing with the HP Mass program? That makes more sense for CDEF. And yeah recovering from a shrug takes very little time.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

Well, the Reverse Grip BP is a "pressing" exercise so it hits everything (Shoulders, Chest, Tri) - You can emphasize certain muscles (chest or tri's) depending on your starting position and your squeeze at the top (to focus more on chest, "squeeze" the bar together)

Honestly, the regular Bench Press is not a very good Pec exercise IMO. There are many exercises much better suited, I much prefer inclines and declines (even things like Rings, Flys, DB presses)

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jtbrown0511
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2012
Location: South Dakota, USA
Posts: 168

Sorry to reply so late. Thanks again for the advice. Whats your thoughts on doing squats from pins? I know i've read stuff on it lately but can't seem to find it. I want to be explosive in a squat but find it hard doing a full squat. Any thoughts?

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Think tank fish
Level 10

Join date: Aug 2004
Location: England
Posts: 262

Lonnie123 wrote:
From CT, taken from an old live spill( http://www.T-Nation.com/...ning-topics/680 ):

THICKNESS

SUPERSET A

A1. Face pull 4 x 8-10

A2. DB chest-supported rear delts raise 4 x 8-10

SUPERSET B

B1. Seated row to mid-sternum, hold peak contraction 2 seconds per rep 4 x 8-10

B2. Blast straps rear delts 4 x 8-10

C. Power high pull 5 x 4-6

D. Power shrugs 5 x 4-6

E. Strict shrugs 4 x 10-12 with 2 seconds hold at the top

F. One-arm barbell shrug to the side 4 x 6-8 per side

WIDTH
04-18-2011 16:30

TRIPLE SET A

A1. Rope straigth-arms pulldown 4 x 8-10

A2. Kneeling rope lat pulldown torso leaning forward, same weight x max reps

A3. Kneeling lat pulldown leaning back, same weight max reps

SUPERSET B

B1. Straight-arms pulldown with bar 4 x 8-10

B2. Stretcher row (from John Meadows) 4 x 8-10

SUPERSET C

C1. Low pulley straigth-arm pulldown with rope 4 x 8-10

C2. Low-pulley cable rowing with rope, same weight max reps


Just throw in some bicep work afterwards on each day. Or, check out these other spill by CT for some tips/tricks/ideas:

http://www.T-Nation.com/...ning-topics/556

http://www.T-Nation.com/...ning-topics/487

BTW - There is a HUGE number of old Training Labs that CT has written. At the top of the page, go to Training Lab ~> Indigo Project. Once there, Filter the search results under CT's name and read them. There are 6+ pages of GOLD in there.



OP or Lonnie, have either of you tried this back workout? It seems like so much volume. 30+ sets for back thickness & 30+ sets for width. Can you honestly recover from that?

I love training back, but if I did half that volume it would wreck me regardless of diet.

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Lonnie123
Level 5

Join date: Jun 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 6201

I never had any problems with it. Its not like you are doing 30 sets of dead lifts... We are talking things like Face pulls, Blast Straps, and lat pull down variations. The High Pull ~> Power Shrug ~> Strict Shrug ~> 1 Arm Shrug combo, while 20 sets, really isnt all that much because of the performance aspect of the first two movements, and the last 2 just really arent that taxing.

If you havent done the 2 second holds before, start with an EASY weight, because the holds can add up fast when it comes to the fatigue. I literally went from "lat pulling" the entire stack of 300lb, down to like 120 pounds with the 2 sec squeeze. It makes a massive difference in how you FEEL it in your back though.

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