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Thoughts on Mark Rippetoe?
 

Mad Martigan
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Join date: Apr 2013
Posts: 212

Look, man, you are obviously angry about something, so I'm sorry for rustling your jimmies. But you did *essentially* call Some Dude a liar when you refuted his numbers. You don't want to call it that, that's fine. Bottom line, I agree that very few novices will hit those numbers with a BW of 170 or otherwise - we're in agreement.

But if that's the case, and you expect people to reset their #s when they hit their wall at say 2 or 3 months, how far do you expect them to get? I admit I'm no trainer, and I'm going off anecdotes, but everyone I've seen reset SS goes not too much farther than where they left off.

You have this attitude like SS must last soooo much longer than 3-4 months. I'm still not really sure why. It would have been one thing if you said, "you know, 3-4 months is too short in my experience. I'd say it should usually take 9 months, or a year or whatever" Instead you told me that 3-4 months was "antithetical to good sense." That's a statement, my friend! I broke down my numbers, you haven't refuted the 5-10lb linear progression per session.

Just tell me how it's supposed to go down so I can understand where you are coming from. Otherwise, I'll say this is one of things we're not going to agree about.

Also, RR is a goon. Find me a good FDR video.

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UtahLama
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6774

Mad Martigan wrote:
Look, man, you are obviously angry about something



He is not angry, trust me....you can tell when he is....haha


He is just trying to impart some wisdom to you, since he has been lifting for about 30 years. Us old farts have learned from our many mistakes.

Listen to what he is saying.

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Mad Martigan
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Join date: Apr 2013
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UtahLama wrote:
Mad Martigan wrote:
Look, man, you are obviously angry about something



He is not angry, trust me....you can tell when he is....haha


He is just trying to impart some wisdom to you, since he has been lifting for about 30 years. Us old farts have learned from our many mistakes.

Listen to what he is saying.


I am listening. I agree with him almost entirely. All I'm asking is that he tells me how he sees the typical, well-run SS program going down so I can learn my error. I admit I don't know everything about SS, but just giving me sassy comments all day does nothing to educate me if I am in fact wrong.

I crunched the numbers and I don't see most people getting farther than 300-350lb on a 3x5 linear progression. If you do it right and eat/rest enough, that's where you'll be in 3-4 months. Help me understand what Im missing. Edumucate me, man.

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UtahLama
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6774

Mad Martigan wrote:
UtahLama wrote:
Mad Martigan wrote:
Look, man, you are obviously angry about something



He is not angry, trust me....you can tell when he is....haha


He is just trying to impart some wisdom to you, since he has been lifting for about 30 years. Us old farts have learned from our many mistakes.

Listen to what he is saying.


I am listening. I agree with him almost entirely. All I'm asking is that he tells me how he sees the typical, well-run SS program going down so I can learn my error. I admit I don't know everything about SS, but just giving me sassy comments all day does nothing to educate me if I am in fact wrong.

I crunched the numbers and I don't see most people getting farther than 300-350lb on a 3x5 linear progression. If you do it right and eat/rest enough, that's where you'll be in 3-4 months. Help me understand what Im missing. Edumucate me, man.



There are folks that go either way of course....but I think he is saying that if you give it 100% effort you can get more out of SS than just a few months....and that a true beginner is going to need more time to base build.

I think you are both on the same page, it's just a slight difference in theory.

Newbs (not that I am assuming you are one) tend to switch programs too soon before they get all the benefits out on the one they are currently on.

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some_dude
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Join date: Jan 2013
Posts: 290

Mad Martigan wrote:
But you did *essentially* call Some Dude a liar when you refuted his numbers.


In fairness, I think he has a right to call out someone on their claims, and I feel that expecting someone to back up their claim is different from calling someone an outright liar.

Beyond that, I think we're all more or less agreeing on the shit that actually matters.

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Stronghold
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Join date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6213

Push.

With Starting Strength, the specific loading criteria is to start light and add 5-10 lbs to every lift THREE TIMES PER WEEK.

That sort of progression is going to exhaust itself fairly quickly. For every one of the typical 170 lb 21 year old trainees that I've put through "the program" that I outlined in the "how should a newb train" thread, this is 3-6 months and they end up benching low 200's and squatting high 200's for 3x5. The purpose of this phase is to gain strength as quickly as possible while the general stimulus of training is still very very new. This phase should end once the ability to add weight to the bar every single workout is exhausted.

After that, it makes more sense to switch to a program like 5/3/1, Juggernaut, or Texas Method. All of these are "work the heavy compounds" as you mentioned earlier, but follow a more moderate and slower progression model that is tailored towards the adaptive capacity of an intermediate.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing about here.

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pushharder
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Join date: Apr 2005
Posts: 38067

Stronghold wrote:
Push.

With Starting Strength, the specific loading criteria is to start light and add 5-10 lbs to every lift THREE TIMES PER WEEK.

That sort of progression is going to exhaust itself fairly quickly. For every one of the typical 170 lb 21 year old trainees that I've put through "the program" that I outlined in the "how should a newb train" thread, this is 3-6 months and they end up benching low 200's and squatting high 200's for 3x5. The purpose of this phase is to gain strength as quickly as possible while the general stimulus of training is still very very new. This phase should end once the ability to add weight to the bar every single workout is exhausted.

After that, it makes more sense to switch to a program like 5/3/1, Juggernaut, or Texas Method. All of these are "work the heavy compounds" as you mentioned earlier, but follow a more moderate and slower progression model that is tailored towards the adaptive capacity of an intermediate.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing about here.


My take on it is the 5 - 10 lbs can be scaled back as the progression increases. I don't think the EXACT poundage of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 is the key factor. Consistent progression with the compounds is.

I have no problem with your suggestions, however.

My main beef in this whole thread was with the morons who claimed Rippetoe is basically a charlatan and doesn't know what he's talking about. EVERYTHING I've ever read by the man is consistent with my training philosophy even though I've never done one of his specific programs.

My secondary beef was with whoever it was that claimed, or seemed to, that a brand spankin new sprout of green grass should/could be squatting 345 for 5 after 2 - 4 months. Hogwash.

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MytchBucanan
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Join date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1927

eaboadar wrote:
rds63799 wrote:
urgh, this again.

Rippetoe writes programs designed around teaching beginner to intermediate lifters the basic barbell lifts. That's all he does. To say Rippetoe sucks is wrong, because he does what he does exceptionally well. When these discussions come up people point out that his programs are no good for bodybuilding. Rip doesn't give a shit about bodybuilding. He gives a shit about the basic, barbell lifts, and that's what he teaches with a huge degree of skill and success.

If you don't want to do a program based off of the basic BB lifts, then you wouldn't do one of Rip's programs. That doesn't make his programs bad, or make him a bad coach, it just means that your goals are not in line with what Rip teaches. Not everyone that lifts weights wants to get into bodybuilding or cares about things like making sure their rear delts or upper chest don't lag. Some people just like to squat, bench and clean heavy. For these people, Rip's programs like SS or the Texas Method are a fine choice for as long as they can progress without needing some kind of periodisation.

And he doesn't recommend GOMAD for everyone, just the skinny teenage kids that need the calories.

You might not want to do one of his programs, but there is no denying that Rip is exceptional at coaching what he does, and his programs will most definitely get you strong in the basic lifts. If your goals require a different program, then do a different program. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with Rip's programs, just that they don't suit your goals.


This should pretty much end the discussion, especially since his programs and teachings have proven to be effective for those who's goals are in line with the program's objectives.

Also, he's the man when it comes to teaching the basic lifts. His book does a terrific job at detailing them. Some of the minor details have been somewhat controversial (for example looking straight/down instead of up when squatting) but that's just silly people getting their panties in a bunch over minutia. The overall approach is spot on.



I respect Rip and his solid reputation, but I still think it's strange how he teaches lifters to raise their hips before their shoulders when coming out of the whole during a barbell squat. Most here know that this is what happens when your quads get tired at the end of your set. I don't get why he teaches that type of (fatigued?) form for every single rep. It reduces quad involvement.

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MytchBucanan
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Join date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1927

some_dude wrote:
pushharder wrote:

Of course I could be wrong but you weren't squatting 345 clean reps for 5 after two months after never touching a barbell before with a bodyweight of 170. If so, post a video and expect me to critique your depth (which I've found 90% of the time is too shallow and therefore a pseudo number)

Even then, the TX Method is just a variant of "Work the Basic Compound Lifts" by the SAME guy -- the same guy who essentially says full depth back squats kick leg extension's ass as a foundation for strength training.


I filmed me hitting 315 because it was a milestone moment for me. The third set is from the side... skip to 1:43 if you want to see it.




FWIW, I'm 35 and 200lbs. The last time I squatted I was 14 years ago and it was nancy 1/4 squats @ 225. I thought I was boss because I was squatting two plates.

Anyway...

Squatting three times a week with 10 pound increments adds up to 30 pounds a week or 240 pounds over 8 weeks. 125+240=365. I achieved 355x5.




Nice job on the squats.....form was killer.

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Stronghold
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Join date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6213

pushharder wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Push.

With Starting Strength, the specific loading criteria is to start light and add 5-10 lbs to every lift THREE TIMES PER WEEK.

That sort of progression is going to exhaust itself fairly quickly. For every one of the typical 170 lb 21 year old trainees that I've put through "the program" that I outlined in the "how should a newb train" thread, this is 3-6 months and they end up benching low 200's and squatting high 200's for 3x5. The purpose of this phase is to gain strength as quickly as possible while the general stimulus of training is still very very new. This phase should end once the ability to add weight to the bar every single workout is exhausted.

After that, it makes more sense to switch to a program like 5/3/1, Juggernaut, or Texas Method. All of these are "work the heavy compounds" as you mentioned earlier, but follow a more moderate and slower progression model that is tailored towards the adaptive capacity of an intermediate.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing about here.


My take on it is the 5 - 10 lbs can be scaled back as the progression increases. I don't think the EXACT poundage of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 is the key factor. Consistent progression with the compounds is.

I have no problem with your suggestions, however.

My main beef in this whole thread was with the morons who claimed Rippetoe is basically a charlatan and doesn't know what he's talking about. EVERYTHING I've ever read by the man is consistent with my training philosophy even though I've never done one of his specific programs.

My secondary beef was with whoever it was that claimed, or seemed to, that a brand spankin new sprout of green grass should/could be squatting 345 for 5 after 2 - 4 months. Hogwash.


Gotcha.

My opinion is that it's more productive just to alter the periodization model after the initial adaptation phase is over rather than resorting to microloading, but that's a difference of opinion and not really a big deal.

Most people see the sets x reps that Rippetoe recommends and get so caught up in arguing against that that they miss the big overall themes of his writing, which are very solid concepts that everyone with physique or strength goals should be conscientious of. Forest vs. trees and all that. Like all of this nonsense about there not being any barbell curls listed in SS, so Rippetoe doesn't believe in direct bicep work, and then he goes and says "We curl the barbell because it puts more strain on the biceps than other exercises. There's no need to get philosophical about this, we're just training arms."

Too much zealotry over this stuff.

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some_dude
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MytchBucanan wrote:

I respect Rip and his solid reputation, but I still think it's strange how he teaches lifters to raise their hips before their shoulders when coming out of the whole during a barbell squat. Most here know that this is what happens when your quads get tired at the end of your set. I don't get why he teaches that type of (fatigued?) form for every single rep. It reduces quad involvement.


I flipped through SS and I couldn't find anywhere where he says that. He does talk about hip drive, and he does say to not raise the shoulders before the hips (puts you off balance), but I couldn't find anywhere where he says to raise the hips before the shoulders. He even includes a diagram (fig 2-22) indicating the shoulders and hips should move together.

The deadlift on the other hand....

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MytchBucanan
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Join date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1927

some_dude wrote:
MytchBucanan wrote:

I respect Rip and his solid reputation, but I still think it's strange how he teaches lifters to raise their hips before their shoulders when coming out of the whole during a barbell squat. Most here know that this is what happens when your quads get tired at the end of your set. I don't get why he teaches that type of (fatigued?) form for every single rep. It reduces quad involvement.


I flipped through SS and I couldn't find anywhere where he says that. He does talk about hip drive, and he does say to not raise the shoulders before the hips (puts you off balance), but I couldn't find anywhere where he says to raise the hips before the shoulders. He even includes a diagram (fig 2-22) indicating the shoulders and hips should move together.

The deadlift on the other hand....



He was coaching it to someone in a video. Maybe it was meant for that trainer specifically.

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MytchBucanan
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Join date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1927

some_dude wrote:
MytchBucanan wrote:

I respect Rip and his solid reputation, but I still think it's strange how he teaches lifters to raise their hips before their shoulders when coming out of the whole during a barbell squat. Most here know that this is what happens when your quads get tired at the end of your set. I don't get why he teaches that type of (fatigued?) form for every single rep. It reduces quad involvement.


I flipped through SS and I couldn't find anywhere where he says that. He does talk about hip drive, and he does say to not raise the shoulders before the hips (puts you off balance), but I couldn't find anywhere where he says to raise the hips before the shoulders. He even includes a diagram (fig 2-22) indicating the shoulders and hips should move together.

The deadlift on the other hand....


I have since watched a lot more videos of him lately and I'm really starting to like his stuff.

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AnytimeJake
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Join date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1825

from my expierance, 16-18yr kids that walk in a gym for the first time, weather alone or a group, and start off with some sort of magazine program, blitzing a bodypart to death a day, the big percentage don't do well, drifting away, or turning to juice.

If I take these kids and put them on a Rippetoe, or Wendler program for a year or until a 1000lb total is reached, they end up with a solid base for life, a base in : nutrition, rest, progression, and a solid understanding of doing a proper rep, with : squat, dead, bench, military, row. I've witnesed with my own eyes these kids being light years ahead of their buddies at the end of the year, that chose not to work with me, and go the BBing rout from the start, both in strength and in size.

Once they hit their goal, and they decide what direction they want to go : BBing, PLing, or atletics, they have the base to move forward, recently we've had goodluck with young BBer's going to the max OT for their second year, it seems a nice fit, and then a futher split after that. The main problem I see is that variety for the sake of variety doesn't work, and when they start on a magazine program, kids end up changing programs every other week, they get no solid base, and no solid understanding of basic lifts, most kids will gravitate to easy pumping type exercise, if not following a solid program.

I have been doing this for 20yrs, and spent 14hrs a day in a gym for the last 5yrs, this is what I've witnesed. To many kids can tell you the name of Jay Cutler's dog, but can't demonstrate a proper squat, and a basic program for the first year changes that, for this reason I think Rips programs are first class. 2cents

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Fullback33
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Join date: Dec 2006
Posts: 159

Anytime Jake gets it. Lots of poor reading comprehension in this thread. I would bet my shirt that the naysayers here don't even own Rip's books anyway. The people arguing against SS are probably the people who need it. They are the ones who have been lifting for a few years with very little to show for it, asthetically or otherwise. I was one of those people too. Now I am doing SS and I am bigger and stronger.

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jimg21
Level 4

Join date: Feb 2005
Posts: 196

optheta wrote:
Every kid who does starting strength wants to BB so why the FUCK do you do a NONE BBing program.

Biggest waist of my time.


No, not every kid who does SS wants to be a bodybuilder. Some use it to build a base of strength for sports. Some will continue to use variations as they get stronger. An example is the BIll Starr four day / week routine

I agree there are better ways to train for BBing then to use SS, even for beginners. But you are misinformed to think every kid wants to body build. It may not have fit your needs but SS and similar programs have done well for many others with other goals.

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stlcardsfan
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I think he is accurate in that weightlifting should revolve around the basic barbell lifts. But he gets sidetracked when talking about athletes. I play basketball 4 times a week, and anybody that plays a sport knows that you need a lot more then just basic strength to succeed. Personally, I love playing against the guy who only lifts....they have no wind, no quickness and 10 minutes into the game they are done. He downplays "exercise", that exercise is increasing your cardio so you can effetively compete for a period of time.

Personally, I have grown to really love lifting. But it should be part of the package for an athlete, you can't get by on just basic lifting. You have to be in shape, you have to work on quickness just you like you do in lifting. The lifting should be done, to increase your athletic ability, not as means onto itself.

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some_dude
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stlcardsfan wrote:
I think he is accurate in that weightlifting should revolve around the basic barbell lifts. But he gets sidetracked when talking about athletes. I play basketball 4 times a week, and anybody that plays a sport knows that you need a lot more then just basic strength to succeed. Personally, I love playing against the guy who only lifts....they have no wind, no quickness and 10 minutes into the game they are done. He downplays "exercise", that exercise is increasing your cardio so you can effetively compete for a period of time.


Have you even read his book?

"If you are already very strong you need to devote most of your attention to the development of other aspects of performance"
- Rippetoe

"Exercise is physical activity for its own sake, a workout done for the effect it produces today, during the workout or right after you're through. Training is physical activity done with a longer-term goal in mind, the constituent workouts of which are specifically designed to achieve that goal. If a program of physical activity is not designed to get you stronger or faster or better conditioned by producing a specific stress to which a specific desirable adaptation can occur, you don't get to call it training. It is just exercise. For most people, exercise is perfectly adequate - it's certainly better than sitting on your ass."
- Rippetoe

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stlcardsfan
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No I haven't read his book, but I was responding to the article that was listed. I don't think he is wrong, and again I'm not a trainer, but just responding to the thought behind his article. Even the quote you listed doesn't make sense to me. He states that Exercise is an activity for the effect it produces today....what does this mean.

What exercise doesn't give you some type of long term benefit. I would be the first to admit that I haven't been at this long enough to even offer a good judgement on his work, but training is exercise. I would call anything you do that benefits your conditioning is exercise. Better conditioning results in better performance.

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bpick86
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stlcardsfan wrote:
No I haven't read his book, but I was responding to the article that was listed. I don't think he is wrong, and again I'm not a trainer, but just responding to the thought behind his article. Even the quote you listed doesn't make sense to me. He states that Exercise is an activity for the effect it produces today....what does this mean.

What exercise doesn't give you some type of long term benefit. I would be the first to admit that I haven't been at this long enough to even offer a good judgement on his work, but training is exercise. I would call anything you do that benefits your conditioning is exercise. Better conditioning results in better performance.



Its just semantics at this point. Rippetoe distinguishes between training and exercising in the quote listed above. Exercising is working out for the sake of getting a workout in and having no real long term plan as to that workouts place in helping you achieve your goals.

Training is taking each workout as a piece of a greater effort intended to improve your performance at a given task. I would also add that practice is a little different than either of these. Practice is the act of performing a specific skill (dribbling, shooting, learning plays) to improve at that skill and hopefully your TRAINING has given your body the ability to perform these skills more efficiently or explosively.

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bulkNcut
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Join date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1055

some_dude wrote:
MytchBucanan wrote:

I respect Rip and his solid reputation, but I still think it's strange how he teaches lifters to raise their hips before their shoulders when coming out of the whole during a barbell squat. Most here know that this is what happens when your quads get tired at the end of your set. I don't get why he teaches that type of (fatigued?) form for every single rep. It reduces quad involvement.


I flipped through SS and I couldn't find anywhere where he says that. He does talk about hip drive, and he does say to not raise the shoulders before the hips (puts you off balance), but I couldn't find anywhere where he says to raise the hips before the shoulders. He even includes a diagram (fig 2-22) indicating the shoulders and hips should move together.

The deadlift on the other hand....


I'll have to flip through my copy of starting strength again, but I'm pretty sure he does say to initiate the ascent with the hips. I've seen him cue guys by putting his hand on their lower back and telling them to come out of the hole pushing against his hand. I've tried squatting this way, and theres conflicting views on it, but It def makes it more of a posterior chain exercise. Its more about teaching hip drive and activating more posterior chain musculature than it is about minimizing quad involvement if I'm not mistaken. RIp is all about training the most muscles at once and the body functioning as an entire system.

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some_dude
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stlcardsfan wrote:
No I haven't read his book, but I was responding to the article that was listed. I don't think he is wrong, and again I'm not a trainer, but just responding to the thought behind his article. Even the quote you listed doesn't make sense to me. He states that Exercise is an activity for the effect it produces today....what does this mean.

What exercise doesn't give you some type of long term benefit. I would be the first to admit that I haven't been at this long enough to even offer a good judgement on his work, but training is exercise. I would call anything you do that benefits your conditioning is exercise. Better conditioning results in better performance.



It's about focus and training economy. If I spend an hour doing some random exercises I'll achieve random results. If I spend an hour doing programmed exercises I'll achieve programmed results. A lot of what he's saying is semantics, but he's basically trying to keep people focused on optimizing training to produce the desired end result instead of choosing personal satisfaction today with no regard to how it'll affect performance a week, month or year down the road.

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some_dude
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bulkNcut wrote:
some_dude wrote:
MytchBucanan wrote:

I respect Rip and his solid reputation, but I still think it's strange how he teaches lifters to raise their hips before their shoulders when coming out of the whole during a barbell squat. Most here know that this is what happens when your quads get tired at the end of your set. I don't get why he teaches that type of (fatigued?) form for every single rep. It reduces quad involvement.


I flipped through SS and I couldn't find anywhere where he says that. He does talk about hip drive, and he does say to not raise the shoulders before the hips (puts you off balance), but I couldn't find anywhere where he says to raise the hips before the shoulders. He even includes a diagram (fig 2-22) indicating the shoulders and hips should move together.

The deadlift on the other hand....


I'll have to flip through my copy of starting strength again, but I'm pretty sure he does say to initiate the ascent with the hips. I've seen him cue guys by putting his hand on their lower back and telling them to come out of the hole pushing against his hand. I've tried squatting this way, and theres conflicting views on it, but It def makes it more of a posterior chain exercise. Its more about teaching hip drive and activating more posterior chain musculature than it is about minimizing quad involvement if I'm not mistaken. RIp is all about training the most muscles at once and the body functioning as an entire system.


He does say to initiate from the hips, but he doesn't say to raise the hips before the shoulders.

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stlcardsfan
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some_dude wrote:
stlcardsfan wrote:
No I haven't read his book, but I was responding to the article that was listed. I don't think he is wrong, and again I'm not a trainer, but just responding to the thought behind his article. Even the quote you listed doesn't make sense to me. He states that Exercise is an activity for the effect it produces today....what does this mean.

What exercise doesn't give you some type of long term benefit. I would be the first to admit that I haven't been at this long enough to even offer a good judgement on his work, but training is exercise. I would call anything you do that benefits your conditioning is exercise. Better conditioning results in better performance.



It's about focus and training economy. If I spend an hour doing some random exercises I'll achieve random results. If I spend an hour doing programmed exercises I'll achieve programmed results. A lot of what he's saying is semantics, but he's basically trying to keep people focused on optimizing training to produce the desired end result instead of choosing personal satisfaction today with no regard to how it'll affect performance a week, month or year down the road.


That is a good point. I've been doing the 5/3/1 plan, so that is training. It's been a huge benefit having a "plan" when I work out and my gains have been so much better then when I just used to go in and did what I felt like, which is the exercise that he is talking about. I've only been at this for about 6 months now and wish I had started much sooner.

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Gorthaur
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Has anybody tried the Starting Strength programme while following a reletively hard conditioning regime concurrently? I know Rippetoe advises against this for pure strength gains and the reasons are obvious, but I was wondering if anybody has consistently improved their lifts when additional conditioning goals must at very least be maintained?

I am a road cyclist and am currently trying to focus on increasing absolute strength. During this phase I have decreased my cycling sessions to 3-4 a week and I also reduced the frequency of the SS programme to 2-3 times per week. My gains were linear at first but very recently have started to plateau somewhat, although my squat is still increasing.

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