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Running Shoes for Clydesdales
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PaddyM
Level 1

Join date: Mar 2009
Posts: 979

Hey everyone. I was wondering what everyone's suggestions for good cushioning shoes for 200+ pounders was. My NB Minimus are good, but only on treadmills as I tend to get knee/shin problems on pavement/trail with them. Thanks.

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Captnoblivious
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Join date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1611

Do you have biomechanical issues?

here is some pretty good info.


http://www.beginnertriathlete....

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kineticj
Level

Join date: Jul 2009
Posts: 297

I'm about 220 and gave up on regular running on pavement/concrete a couple of years ago. I get talked into three or four 5k charity runs each year and for those I have a pair of Brooks running shoes that seem to do better than any other brand I have used. The rest of the time I run (jog) on offroad park trails, grass fields and hills I am in Merrell Trail Gloves. I also do all of my lifting and gpp work in the Trail Gloves. They take a little getting used to - your calves may feel really worked for a bit - but they have really helped me. My feet, knees and back all feel better these days. If you do get the Trail Gloves or something similar, you will notice your stride changing. Much less heel strike and more mid foot impact when you run. Good luck!

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gregron
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13490

Clydesdales?

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WN76
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Join date: Sep 2012
Posts: 436

.

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Captnoblivious
Level

Join date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1611

gregron wrote:
Clydesdales?


Male runners of 200lbs or greater

Females runners 150lbs and greater are called "Athenas"

There are separate awards sections for those weight classes.


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gregron
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13490

Captnoblivious wrote:
gregron wrote:
Clydesdales?


Male runners of 200lbs or greater

Females runners 150lbs and greater are called "Heffers"

There are separate awards sections for those weight classes.


Really? That's not very nice.

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Captnoblivious
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Join date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1611

gregron wrote:
Captnoblivious wrote:
gregron wrote:
Clydesdales?


Male runners of 200lbs or greater

Females runners 150lbs and greater are called "Heffers"

There are separate awards sections for those weight classes.


Really? That's not very nice.


Actually, real runners just call them fat and slow.

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MaximusB
Level 5

Join date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15349

Captnoblivious wrote:
gregron wrote:
Captnoblivious wrote:
gregron wrote:
Clydesdales?


Male runners of 200lbs or greater

Females runners 150lbs and greater are called "Heffers"

There are separate awards sections for those weight classes.


Really? That's not very nice.


Actually, real runners just call them fat and slow.







Is this about distance running ? If so, who cares what some anorexic half-starved stragglers think.

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RampantBadger
Level

Join date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2286

Nike free 3.0

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batman730
Level

Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1273

IMHO footstrike and stride mechanics are far more important than cushioning, especially for big horses. Forces of up to 2 or 300% bodyweight are generated when heel striking. If we assume you weigh 200#, that means up to 600# of force will potentially be generated on each impact. To expect any reasonable amount of cushioning in a shoe to do an effective job of dampening this amount of force is unrealistic, IMO. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever to show that any type of cushioned or motion control shoe design does anything to reduce running injuries. In fact, there is some evidence that the opposite may be true. Cushioning may allow for a harder heel strike by easing the immediate discomfort in the foot on each impact while still allowing massive amounts of force to be repetitively transferred into skeletal system, making injury more likely. This is so prevalent that despite the staggering and ever-increasing amount of money that is spent on shoes, 80% of runners will experience will experience an injury that will disrupt their training in any given year.

In contrast, forefoot striking generates minimal impact forces (potentially far less than 10% bodyweight) and allows the inbuilt shock absorption structures in our feet and lower legs to largely dissipate those forces before they are transferred into our skeletal systems. The catch is that making sudden changes in stride mechanics is a recipe for pain and ultimately injury, especially in your calves and shins. An intelligent plan for gradually transitioning to a forefoot strike with skill drills and lower mileage will allow you to adapt properly to the change in movement pattern.

This is the problem with minimalist shoes, IMO. People buy different shoes but either run in the same old way or try to force a wholesale change overnight. I run in NB Minimus at a bodyweight of 230#. Running is on the back burner for me but I was running 5k or more 3x weekly on mixed pavement and trails for 6 months without any discomfort (other than a mild pre-existing strain from a non-running injury). However I was very aware of my stride and foot strike. Obviously your experience may vary. My point is that I doubt your problem will be solved by shoes, or if it is it will be short-term relief that will only mask an underlying problem that will eventually bite you in the ass.

TL:DR - If you're running properly, shoes don't matter much. If you're running improperly, shoes don't matter much.

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gregron
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13490

^^so what you're saying is shows don't matter much?

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batman730
Level

Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1273

gregron wrote:
^^so what you're saying is shows don't matter much?


Actually, as far as I can tell most shows don't matter at all...

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on edge
Level 5

Join date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6886

batman730 wrote:
IMHO footstrike and stride mechanics are far more important than cushioning, especially for big horses. Forces of up to 2 or 300% bodyweight are generated when heel striking. If we assume you weigh 200#, that means up to 600# of force will potentially be generated on each impact. To expect any reasonable amount of cushioning in a shoe to do an effective job of dampening this amount of force is unrealistic, IMO. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever to show that any type of cushioned or motion control shoe design does anything to reduce running injuries. In fact, there is some evidence that the opposite may be true. Cushioning may allow for a harder heel strike by easing the immediate discomfort in the foot on each impact while still allowing massive amounts of force to be repetitively transferred into skeletal system, making injury more likely. This is so prevalent that despite the staggering and ever-increasing amount of money that is spent on shoes, 80% of runners will experience will experience an injury that will disrupt their training in any given year.

In contrast, forefoot striking generates minimal impact forces (potentially far less than 10% bodyweight) and allows the inbuilt shock absorption structures in our feet and lower legs to largely dissipate those forces before they are transferred into our skeletal systems. The catch is that making sudden changes in stride mechanics is a recipe for pain and ultimately injury, especially in your calves and shins. An intelligent plan for gradually transitioning to a forefoot strike with skill drills and lower mileage will allow you to adapt properly to the change in movement pattern.

This is the problem with minimalist shoes, IMO. People buy different shoes but either run in the same old way or try to force a wholesale change overnight. I run in NB Minimus at a bodyweight of 230#. Running is on the back burner for me but I was running 5k or more 3x weekly on mixed pavement and trails for 6 months without any discomfort (other than a mild pre-existing strain from a non-running injury). However I was very aware of my stride and foot strike. Obviously your experience may vary. My point is that I doubt your problem will be solved by shoes, or if it is it will be short-term relief that will only mask an underlying problem that will eventually bite you in the ass.

TL:DR - If you're running properly, shoes don't matter much. If you're running improperly, shoes don't matter much.


I completely agree with this post. I think it would be a mistake for you to go back to "cushioned" shoes without making sure you've attempted an appropriate transition to minimalist. Maybe you've done that, I don't know, but my experience (substantial-personal) leads me to believe you probably haven't.

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gregron
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13490

batman730 wrote:
gregron wrote:
^^so what you're saying is shows don't matter much?


Actually, as far as I can tell most shows don't matter at all...


Nicely done Batman.

Stupid autocorrect!

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WN76
Level

Join date: Sep 2012
Posts: 436

batman730,

Could you lay out the transition program you followed?

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Captnoblivious
Level

Join date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1611

MaximusB wrote:
Captnoblivious wrote:
gregron wrote:
Captnoblivious wrote:
gregron wrote:
Clydesdales?


Male runners of 200lbs or greater

Females runners 150lbs and greater are called "Heffers"

There are separate awards sections for those weight classes.


Really? That's not very nice.


Actually, real runners just call them fat and slow.







Is this about distance running ? If so, who cares what some anorexic half-starved stragglers think.


In a bodybuilding forum? No one!

I wish I never ran competitively, my IT bands are fucked.

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batman730
Level

Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1273

WN76 wrote:
batman730,

Could you lay out the transition program you followed?


Well, I can't recommend anybody try to duplicate my approach. It was a somewhat haphazard, self-designed mishmash that happened to work out okay despite being far from optimal. There are infinitely superior resources available for anybody interested in the subject.

My first introduction came from Danny Dreyer's book Chi Running (McDougall's Born To Run is very good too, but more of a memoir). Despite being a little new-agey in places, I found it to be very helpful. It contains some valuable general concepts, some specific cues and drills as well as a comprehensive beginner's program for developing mid/forefoot strike. However, I lacked the patience to follow that program. I did incorporate the drills into my warm-ups and focused on the cues and concepts ("quiet feet", quick, light, springy foot strike, forward lean, lengthening stride to the rear, pelvic rotation, low, loose, square shoulders, relaxed neck/jaw etc.) during my runs. At that time I was doing all my running (not much and mostly speedwork) in a pair of 5+ year old broken down trail shoes with the soles so badly compressed that they were gradually becoming more and more "minimalist" 1k at a time.

I then got into a program that involved mandatory group runs of 3-5+k with mixed sprints and calisthenics 3+x/wk. I really focused on form during these runs and made respectable (for a non-runner) progress. By the end I ran a timed 2500m (1.5 mi) in under 10 minutes. Nothing special but a big step forward for me. More importantly I felt very comfortable with my stride and had no pain. I feel I could comfortably have pushed significantly more mileage, but I didn't really see the point.

When I got my Minimus I dialed it right back and started at the beginning of "Couch to 5k"
(60sec easy pace running followed by 90sec walking for 20 min). I treated these runs as "practices" as opposed to "workouts" as they were designed for someone starting, well just off the couch. I had to really discipline myself not to turn the "60sec easy pace" into a "60sec 85-90% sprint". I found that after a 3 weeks following the Couch to 5k progression I was good with the Minimus and returned to my regularly scheduled programming.

Like I said though, there are far better ways to do this. People who actually know what the hell they are doing offer clinics all the time.

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WN76
Level

Join date: Sep 2012
Posts: 436

batman730 wrote:
WN76 wrote:
batman730,

Could you lay out the transition program you followed?


Well, I can't recommend anybody try to duplicate my approach. It was a somewhat haphazard, self-designed mishmash that happened to work out okay despite being far from optimal. There are infinitely superior resources available for anybody interested in the subject.

My first introduction came from Danny Dreyer's book Chi Running (McDougall's Born To Run is very good too, but more of a memoir). Despite being a little new-agey in places, I found it to be very helpful. It contains some valuable general concepts, some specific cues and drills as well as a comprehensive beginner's program for developing mid/forefoot strike. However, I lacked the patience to follow that program. I did incorporate the drills into my warm-ups and focused on the cues and concepts ("quiet feet", quick, light, springy foot strike, forward lean, lengthening stride to the rear, pelvic rotation, low, loose, square shoulders, relaxed neck/jaw etc.) during my runs. At that time I was doing all my running (not much and mostly speedwork) in a pair of 5+ year old broken down trail shoes with the soles so badly compressed that they were gradually becoming more and more "minimalist" 1k at a time.

I then got into a program that involved mandatory group runs of 3-5+k with mixed sprints and calisthenics 3+x/wk. I really focused on form during these runs and made respectable (for a non-runner) progress. By the end I ran a timed 2500m (1.5 mi) in under 10 minutes. Nothing special but a big step forward for me. More importantly I felt very comfortable with my stride and had no pain. I feel I could comfortably have pushed significantly more mileage, but I didn't really see the point.

When I got my Minimus I dialed it right back and started at the beginning of "Couch to 5k"
(60sec easy pace running followed by 90sec walking for 20 min). I treated these runs as "practices" as opposed to "workouts" as they were designed for someone starting, well just off the couch. I had to really discipline myself not to turn the "60sec easy pace" into a "60sec 85-90% sprint". I found that after a 3 weeks following the Couch to 5k progression I was good with the Minimus and returned to my regularly scheduled programming.

Like I said though, there are far better ways to do this. People who actually know what the hell they are doing offer clinics all the time.


I had a PT recommend Chi Running, and the Minimus shoe to me. At the time I couldn't change my running style as I was expected to run sub 10min 1.5 miles. I have some free time now so I'm going to give it a shot with my worn out runners. Did you experience any arch pain during the switch?

Thanks for the info, batman730.

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batman730
Level

Join date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1273

WN76 wrote:
batman730 wrote:
WN76 wrote:
batman730,

Could you lay out the transition program you followed?


Well, I can't recommend anybody try to duplicate my approach. It was a somewhat haphazard, self-designed mishmash that happened to work out okay despite being far from optimal. There are infinitely superior resources available for anybody interested in the subject.

My first introduction came from Danny Dreyer's book Chi Running (McDougall's Born To Run is very good too, but more of a memoir). Despite being a little new-agey in places, I found it to be very helpful. It contains some valuable general concepts, some specific cues and drills as well as a comprehensive beginner's program for developing mid/forefoot strike. However, I lacked the patience to follow that program. I did incorporate the drills into my warm-ups and focused on the cues and concepts ("quiet feet", quick, light, springy foot strike, forward lean, lengthening stride to the rear, pelvic rotation, low, loose, square shoulders, relaxed neck/jaw etc.) during my runs. At that time I was doing all my running (not much and mostly speedwork) in a pair of 5+ year old broken down trail shoes with the soles so badly compressed that they were gradually becoming more and more "minimalist" 1k at a time.

I then got into a program that involved mandatory group runs of 3-5+k with mixed sprints and calisthenics 3+x/wk. I really focused on form during these runs and made respectable (for a non-runner) progress. By the end I ran a timed 2500m (1.5 mi) in under 10 minutes. Nothing special but a big step forward for me. More importantly I felt very comfortable with my stride and had no pain. I feel I could comfortably have pushed significantly more mileage, but I didn't really see the point.

When I got my Minimus I dialed it right back and started at the beginning of "Couch to 5k"
(60sec easy pace running followed by 90sec walking for 20 min). I treated these runs as "practices" as opposed to "workouts" as they were designed for someone starting, well just off the couch. I had to really discipline myself not to turn the "60sec easy pace" into a "60sec 85-90% sprint". I found that after a 3 weeks following the Couch to 5k progression I was good with the Minimus and returned to my regularly scheduled programming.

Like I said though, there are far better ways to do this. People who actually know what the hell they are doing offer clinics all the time.


I had a PT recommend Chi Running, and the Minimus shoe to me. At the time I couldn't change my running style as I was expected to run sub 10min 1.5 miles. I have some free time now so I'm going to give it a shot with my worn out runners. Did you experience any arch pain during the switch?

Thanks for the info, batman730.



I don't know if the worn out runners were essential to my "success", but you never know...

Anyway, I did have some arch pain but mostly just on those days when my ego got the better of me and my "Couch to 5k" pace shifted up to more of a "Couch to series of 400m sprints" pace. My overall fitness was reasonable, but I just didn't have the foot musculature to support repeated flat out sprints in the Minimus. As long as I kept it nice and easy I was fine.

It takes some real patience and discipline, in my experience, but I found it was worth it.

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PaddyM
Level 1

Join date: Mar 2009
Posts: 979

Thanks for all the information. Batman - I have a lot of hills by my house and find even when I barely jog down them, that's when I feel it, hence why I would like the extra cushioning.

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smallmike
Level

Join date: Aug 2006
Posts: 662

Do you have calluses under any of the heads of the metatarsals of your foot (in the area of the ball of your foot)? If so, then you might have a bone structure that predisposes you to a metatarsal stress fracture if you become a forefoot striker and you may want a shoe with a little more cushioning in the forefoot area.

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MaximusB
Level 5

Join date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15349

The POSE method of running is the best I have seen from my experience, although I would rather have my balls caught in a bear trap than to do distance running...






I would also look at the comments, the person who posted the video seems to be pretty knowledgeable.

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Testy1
Level 4

Join date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3902

WN76 wrote:
batman730 wrote:
WN76 wrote:
batman730,

Could you lay out the transition program you followed?


Well, I can't recommend anybody try to duplicate my approach. It was a somewhat haphazard, self-designed mishmash that happened to work out okay despite being far from optimal. There are infinitely superior resources available for anybody interested in the subject.

My first introduction came from Danny Dreyer's book Chi Running (McDougall's Born To Run is very good too, but more of a memoir). Despite being a little new-agey in places, I found it to be very helpful. It contains some valuable general concepts, some specific cues and drills as well as a comprehensive beginner's program for developing mid/forefoot strike. However, I lacked the patience to follow that program. I did incorporate the drills into my warm-ups and focused on the cues and concepts ("quiet feet", quick, light, springy foot strike, forward lean, lengthening stride to the rear, pelvic rotation, low, loose, square shoulders, relaxed neck/jaw etc.) during my runs. At that time I was doing all my running (not much and mostly speedwork) in a pair of 5+ year old broken down trail shoes with the soles so badly compressed that they were gradually becoming more and more "minimalist" 1k at a time.

I then got into a program that involved mandatory group runs of 3-5+k with mixed sprints and calisthenics 3+x/wk. I really focused on form during these runs and made respectable (for a non-runner) progress. By the end I ran a timed 2500m (1.5 mi) in under 10 minutes. Nothing special but a big step forward for me. More importantly I felt very comfortable with my stride and had no pain. I feel I could comfortably have pushed significantly more mileage, but I didn't really see the point.

When I got my Minimus I dialed it right back and started at the beginning of "Couch to 5k"
(60sec easy pace running followed by 90sec walking for 20 min). I treated these runs as "practices" as opposed to "workouts" as they were designed for someone starting, well just off the couch. I had to really discipline myself not to turn the "60sec easy pace" into a "60sec 85-90% sprint". I found that after a 3 weeks following the Couch to 5k progression I was good with the Minimus and returned to my regularly scheduled programming.

Like I said though, there are far better ways to do this. People who actually know what the hell they are doing offer clinics all the time.


I had a PT recommend Chi Running, and the Minimus shoe to me. At the time I couldn't change my running style as I was expected to run sub 10min 1.5 miles. I have some free time now so I'm going to give it a shot with my worn out runners. Did you experience any arch pain during the switch?

Thanks for the info, batman730.



I am not really a runner so take this for what it is. For comparison purposes I am 210ish and 50 years old. Pretty quick for a chubby old guy but not really into the distance thing.

Over the past summer I mixed in hill sprints/trail running with my hikes eventually working up to running most of a rugged five mile trail. I spend a lot of time in the summer barefoot so I liked the idea of minimalist shoes. I tried the minimus with zero drop and really like them but it didn't take long before I had strained both Achilles.

Anywho, I am planning on retiring the zero drops, moving up to a 4mm drop and starting out again slower. Hope you can glean something useful from this.

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