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MattyXL
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Join date: Jun 2008
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It is true that he (Pineda) was probably going to be sent down regardless of injury. I still believe Nova will take a big step this year, and I base it on last years performance, he also missed a couple weeks because of being sent down for no other reason other than he had options, and very well could of had 18 wins. While I never said a pitchers progression are generally linear, there are some examples of same. Pedro Martinez comes to mind as having somewhat linear progression.

By just calling Nova a question mark is not giving him enough credit, I can understand Hughes as he has been an underachiever and Kuroda who will be pitching in the AL and in an extremely tough division as well as Pettite coming off a year of non playing. Nova on the other hand is someone I have full confidence in being a at the very least a good rotation pitcher and Im willing to bet more.

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therajraj
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Why were the Yankees considering sending him down when he was healthy?

He had a great rookie campaign and throws 97mph

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MattyXL
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For some reason the Yankees love to fuck around with their young pitchers they did it with Joba and Hughes and Nova and now they want tinker with Pineda...

It may have something to do with the lack of velocity and his bad second half last year

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DBCooper
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therajraj wrote:
Why were the Yankees considering sending him down when he was healthy?

He had a great rookie campaign and throws 97mph


Because he was all over the place this spring and he was throwing 91 mph. He had one good year out of nowhere and he's young. There's only about 6 or 7 guys in every organization that throw 97 mph, but the ones that can throw strikes are the ones that make it. The fact is that the Yankees aren't going to fuck around with some guy throwing the ball all over the place with poor velocity just because he had a good year in baseball Siberia last season.

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therajraj
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I'm watching the Jays home opener but apparently Darvish is getting rocked by the offensive juggernaut Mariners.

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Maiden3.16
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Pretty pumped about Feliz' start, even though it was against the Mariners. Darvish was shaky an nervous as hell, but atleast hge finished strong.

Also Strasburg had another strong start going 6 with 9k's and only giving up 2 hits. Top flight.

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therajraj
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^^ Didn't see it, but I did see Daniel Bard and he pitched pretty well in his SP debut.

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DBCooper
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Well, The Beard blew his elbow out. I got home from work just in time to see him pitch and it looked bad. He came off the mound and Posey and the trainer went out to talk to him but he said he was fine. He went from 95 mph on the pitch that he injured himself to 85-88 mph with his fastball after that and still managed to save the game. I can't believe Bochy didn't take him out when he initially tweaked himself. The extra pitches might have been the difference between the 60-day DL and Tommy John surgery.

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therajraj
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^^ That and Zito is out pitching Lincecum.

Some other points of interests, of course it's still early:

Angels offense is struggling.

Rays are in last place

Dodgers are killing it. Could they possibly win the division? The NL West is the most wide open division in the Majors

Darvish hasn't been impressive

Tigers offense going nuts

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strungoutboy21
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The Dodgers aren't killing aside from Kemp and Eithier. They played the Padres seven games out of those ten. The Padres are terrible. They committed 13 errors in ten games, walked four Dodgers in a row in the ninth inning the other day to give them a walk off win. Ehh, the Padres are bad and it doesn't help their two best starters have been on the DL since the season began.

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DBCooper
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strungoutboy21 wrote:
The Dodgers aren't killing aside from Kemp and Eithier. They played the Padres seven games out of those ten. The Padres are terrible. They committed 13 errors in ten games, walked four Dodgers in a row in the ninth inning the other day to give them a walk off win. Ehh, the Padres are bad and it doesn't help their two best starters have been on the DL since the season began.


Agreed. The Padres and Pirates fucking suck. The Dodgers look good, but it's way too early to read into any of this. If they start rolling up the Giants and the D'Backs, then they can be considered legit.

Speaking of the Giants, they just signed Bumgarner to a 6 or 7 year extension. Very smart move on their part. They're going to pay him about $7 million for the next 6 years and I think by then he'll have established himself as one of the top five or six left-handed starters in the game.

However, I also think this spells the end of Lincecum in SF. They're paying him something like $15-17 million a year through 2013, then he's an unrestricted free agent. If he starts to taper off sharply, which it looks like he's in the middle of doing, they could sign him relatively cheap, but if he's on the decline why even bother? I think this is a sign that the Giants have decided which of their pitchers are the best long-term prospects and they've gone ahead and locked them up. I think they're right too: Bumgarner is 6'5" 235 and has never missed a start in his professional career. Matt Cain is 6'3" 215 and has also never missed a start. These guys are built for the long haul and Lincecum simply isn't.

And I think the Giants management is probably pretty frustrated with Lincecum. He doesn't work out hard or seem to have any idea as to how to train in the off season. His weight is constantly fluctuating and the fact is that he's lost velocity on AND command of his fastball every year the last 2 or 3 years now. I can't believe I wasted a fucking third round pick on him in my fantasy league. It was a momentary pang of nostalgia.

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pat
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therajraj wrote:
^^ That and Zito is out pitching Lincecum.

That won't last. I think Zito finally took my advise and fired his extremely stupid PT. He got this new "guru" PT when he went to SF. This guy was the biggest nimrod I have ever seen. Zito's issue had nothing to do with mechanics, pitch selection, location or anything else. Very simply by the time he got on the mound, he was totally wore out. This guy's "warm up" for game day was like a full training session, especially with his pitching arm. By the time he got to the mound, he was done. I have never seen that much volume called a 'warm up' That's why Zito went into the toilet. Somebody must have told him and he fired the num-nut.

But Lincecum is waaaaay better by default. It's still April.

Some other points of interests, of course it's still early:

Angels offense is struggling.

They'll get it turned around. To good not to hit.


Rays are in last place

That's just how Joe Madden likes it. He's got everybody right where they want them.


Dodgers are killing it. Could they possibly win the division? The NL West is the most wide open division in the Majors

Darvish hasn't been impressive

I figured it was going to take him a couple of months to get going. Big adjustment.

Tigers offense going nuts

They're a good team.

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pat
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therajraj wrote:
Pineda wasn't sent down, he is suffering from shoulder tendonitis and is expected to miss all of April.

For some reason his velocity was down in spring training by 5 MPH and apparently he came into camp out of shape.

I forgot they traded away Burnett though, that's true.


That shit doesn't go away...It's going to nag him all year I bet. That sucks for him.

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pat
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DBCooper wrote:
Well, The Beard blew his elbow out. I got home from work just in time to see him pitch and it looked bad. He came off the mound and Posey and the trainer went out to talk to him but he said he was fine. He went from 95 mph on the pitch that he injured himself to 85-88 mph with his fastball after that and still managed to save the game. I can't believe Bochy didn't take him out when he initially tweaked himself. The extra pitches might have been the difference between the 60-day DL and Tommy John surgery.


Ouch...

I don't know, these days, if I were an owner, I wouldn't get a pitcher who hasn't have Tommy Johns'. It seems like they are all going to need it.
Good pitching mechanics is really bad for you.

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americaninsweden
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As a Braves fan I am hoping this series with the Mets is much better than the last!

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americaninsweden
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Also has anyone else looked at the playoff% chance on ESPN http://espn.go.com/mlb/standin...

So damn stupid to have it at this point.

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DBCooper
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pat wrote:
therajraj wrote:
^^ That and Zito is out pitching Lincecum.

That won't last. I think Zito finally took my advise and fired his extremely stupid PT. He got this new "guru" PT when he went to SF. This guy was the biggest nimrod I have ever seen. Zito's issue had nothing to do with mechanics, pitch selection, location or anything else. Very simply by the time he got on the mound, he was totally wore out. This guy's "warm up" for game day was like a full training session, especially with his pitching arm. By the time he got to the mound, he was done. I have never seen that much volume called a 'warm up' That's why Zito went into the toilet. Somebody must have told him and he fired the num-nut.

But Lincecum is waaaaay better by default. It's still April.

Some other points of interests, of course it's still early:

Angels offense is struggling.

They'll get it turned around. To good not to hit.


Rays are in last place

That's just how Joe Madden likes it. He's got everybody right where they want them.


Dodgers are killing it. Could they possibly win the division? The NL West is the most wide open division in the Majors

Darvish hasn't been impressive

I figured it was going to take him a couple of months to get going. Big adjustment.

Tigers offense going nuts

They're a good team.


The problem with Zito has nothing to do with his pregame routine. Pitchers routinely throw 100+ pitches in the bullpen before they take the mound on the field.

The problem with him is his arm speed is waaaaaaay down from his All-Star days with the A's. His fastball sits at about 84-85 on a good day, which is good enough to get major league hitters out if you have pinpoint control and good offspeed stuff. But Zito's curveball is much less sharp because he can't spin it out of his hand as hard anymore. It's also flattened and his other offspeed offerings have never been that great. To compound things, he doesn't have good command and regularly misses his spots by throwing the pitch toward the middle of the plate and up rather than down and off the plate.

The bottom line is that when you take an 84 mph fastball into the game and you consistently miss up in the strike zone you're fucked no matter what your pregame routine is. It's a miracle the guy has pitched well thus far. Hiring that over-analytical dipshit Tom House was a mistake too. He makes some drastic change to his delivery every off season in the hopes of gaining velocity, but a lack of velocity isn't his problem at all; it's a lack of command with ALL of his pitches.

If a pitcher can effectively change speeds with all of his pitches for consistent strikes at the down-and-away location and they can regularly spot the fastball at the belt just off the plate inside, they can dominate any lineup with any type of fastball velocity, certainly with an 85 mph fastball. But Zito has NEVER shown the ability to do that for more than a couple of starts at a time at best since he's been with the Giants. I doubt he's suddenly figured it out.

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therajraj
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DBCooper wrote:

However, I also think this spells the end of Lincecum in SF. They're paying him something like $15-17 million a year through 2013, then he's an unrestricted free agent. If he starts to taper off sharply, which it looks like he's in the middle of doing, they could sign him relatively cheap, but if he's on the decline why even bother? I think this is a sign that the Giants have decided which of their pitchers are the best long-term prospects and they've gone ahead and locked them up. I think they're right too: Bumgarner is 6'5" 235 and has never missed a start in his professional career. Matt Cain is 6'3" 215 and has also never missed a start. These guys are built for the long haul and Lincecum simply isn't.

And I think the Giants management is probably pretty frustrated with Lincecum. He doesn't work out hard or seem to have any idea as to how to train in the off season. His weight is constantly fluctuating and the fact is that he's lost velocity on AND command of his fastball every year the last 2 or 3 years now. I can't believe I wasted a fucking third round pick on him in my fantasy league. It was a momentary pang of nostalgia.



Although he's provided elite pitching, he's technically been in decline since his 2nd Cy Young year. The decrease in his strikeout rate and increase in walk rate are usually telling signs . The guy has been absolutely abused the last 4 years, he's always among the league leaders in pitches thrown/start and total IP. Add in his velocity issues, the unconventional arm taxing delivery and his decision to drop his slider to save his arm and what you're left with is a risky investment.

I think the Giants have gotten most of Lincecum's even though technically a player's prime is generally 26-32.





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Gettnitdone
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Darvish > Strasburg.

Who disagrees?

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DBCooper
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therajraj wrote:
DBCooper wrote:

However, I also think this spells the end of Lincecum in SF. They're paying him something like $15-17 million a year through 2013, then he's an unrestricted free agent. If he starts to taper off sharply, which it looks like he's in the middle of doing, they could sign him relatively cheap, but if he's on the decline why even bother? I think this is a sign that the Giants have decided which of their pitchers are the best long-term prospects and they've gone ahead and locked them up. I think they're right too: Bumgarner is 6'5" 235 and has never missed a start in his professional career. Matt Cain is 6'3" 215 and has also never missed a start. These guys are built for the long haul and Lincecum simply isn't.

And I think the Giants management is probably pretty frustrated with Lincecum. He doesn't work out hard or seem to have any idea as to how to train in the off season. His weight is constantly fluctuating and the fact is that he's lost velocity on AND command of his fastball every year the last 2 or 3 years now. I can't believe I wasted a fucking third round pick on him in my fantasy league. It was a momentary pang of nostalgia.



Although he's provided elite pitching, he's technically been in decline since his 2nd Cy Young year. The decrease in his strikeout rate and increase in walk rate are usually telling signs . The guy has been absolutely abused the last 4 years, he's always among the league leaders in pitches thrown/start and total IP. Add in his velocity issues, the unconventional arm taxing delivery and his decision to drop his slider to save his arm and what you're left with is a risky investment.

I think the Giants have gotten most of Lincecum's even though technically a player's prime is generally 26-32.







I don't think his windup has anything to do with his velocity drop as far as arm strength goes. I think what it has done it has prevented him from finding a very repeatable motion and his control has suffered as a result. With loss of control and the ever-present strikeout mode he seems to be in from the first pitch of an at-bat to the last, he ended up running up high pitch totals even when he was throwing well. I think the high pitch counts and his slight frame, combined with a seeming indifference towards off season conditioning, have eroded his fastball considerably.

The thing that worries me is that as his velocity has dipped he clearly hasn't gained better control along with it, and he doesn't seem to have increased movement on any of his pitches, especially his fastball. I remember when Bonds first faced him in a Spring Training intrasquad and he fucking hammered him. He was throwing 100mph but Bonds said it was straight as an arrow and he backed it up by shellacking one of them. He's gained a little bit of lateral movement with the two-seam grip but he doesn't have any sink to the pitch.

He was always this type of pitcher in terms of control. But when he was throwing 95-97mph and his offspeed stuff had more snap as a result, he could get away with pitches that caught a little too much plate. But now, that shit gets pounded and pounded hard. He's never really improved his control all that much from his first year in the bigs. If he had, the decrease in his overall stuff wouldn't be problematic. It wouldn't even be an issue. Everyone loses a little stuff as they get older, but the really good ones learn how to PITCH better as they age. Matt Cain is a perfect example. When he came up at the age of 20 he threw 96-97mph. But other than that and a curveball, he didn't have much else.

But as he's gotten older the fastball is down to about 92-93, but he has really good command and he knows how to pitch on top of the zone with it and below the zone with his offspeed stuff. And now he can spot any of his pitches in any count at the down and away location. Lincecum hasn't shown this sort of evolution at all and with his windup I don't know if he'll ever be able to gain that sort of command of his pitches.

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DBCooper
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Gettnitdone wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Darvish > Strasburg.

Who disagrees?


As long as Strasburg is healthy, I respectfully disagree. Strasburg has better stuff.

There seems to be this trend in Japan where their pitchers all do twelve different things with the ball and they can throw it all for strikes. And then you find out when they get here that in Japan they consider the sinker, cutter and four-seam fastball three different pitches when it's really just three different things you're doing with one pitch (the fastball). And of course, if they know how to change speeds with their breaking ball, like ALL above average pitchers in the majors, then they count that as three or four different pitches. That whole gyro ball bullshit with Matsuzaka a few years ago was a joke. The gyro ball was nothing more than a flat, back-up slider that he basically ditched after about five starts.

Darvish has good stuff, but from what I've seen he's overhyped. He has a good fastball and he knows how to sink and cut it, but it isn't the 98mph fastball that we heard about so much before he got here. He looks more like he's around 92-94, which is still good but it's not what Strasburg features with his fastball.

At this stage of the game I'd say Strasburg has better command of the strike zone, especially with his fastball. His changeup is probably better than any offspeed pitch Darvish has to offer as well. But I still don't like Strasburg's mechanics, so until he pitches a 200-inning season with considerable success I'm going to remain skeptical about his future.

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therajraj
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DBCooper wrote:
therajraj wrote:
DBCooper wrote:

However, I also think this spells the end of Lincecum in SF. They're paying him something like $15-17 million a year through 2013, then he's an unrestricted free agent. If he starts to taper off sharply, which it looks like he's in the middle of doing, they could sign him relatively cheap, but if he's on the decline why even bother? I think this is a sign that the Giants have decided which of their pitchers are the best long-term prospects and they've gone ahead and locked them up. I think they're right too: Bumgarner is 6'5" 235 and has never missed a start in his professional career. Matt Cain is 6'3" 215 and has also never missed a start. These guys are built for the long haul and Lincecum simply isn't.

And I think the Giants management is probably pretty frustrated with Lincecum. He doesn't work out hard or seem to have any idea as to how to train in the off season. His weight is constantly fluctuating and the fact is that he's lost velocity on AND command of his fastball every year the last 2 or 3 years now. I can't believe I wasted a fucking third round pick on him in my fantasy league. It was a momentary pang of nostalgia.



Although he's provided elite pitching, he's technically been in decline since his 2nd Cy Young year. The decrease in his strikeout rate and increase in walk rate are usually telling signs . The guy has been absolutely abused the last 4 years, he's always among the league leaders in pitches thrown/start and total IP. Add in his velocity issues, the unconventional arm taxing delivery and his decision to drop his slider to save his arm and what you're left with is a risky investment.

I think the Giants have gotten most of Lincecum's even though technically a player's prime is generally 26-32.







I don't think his windup has anything to do with his velocity drop as far as arm strength goes. I think what it has done it has prevented him from finding a very repeatable motion and his control has suffered as a result. With loss of control and the ever-present strikeout mode he seems to be in from the first pitch of an at-bat to the last, he ended up running up high pitch totals even when he was throwing well. I think the high pitch counts and his slight frame, combined with a seeming indifference towards off season conditioning, have eroded his fastball considerably.


I remember discussing his delivery last year, he has that inverted L in his arm action which can be troublesome. I didn't realize his control hadn't really improved since he stepped into the league though.

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therajraj
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Lincecums fastball didn't break 92 last night. Wow

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therajraj
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So if you guys recall Evan Longoria a former elite prospect was signed to a 9 year deal his 2nd week in the Majors.

With what we've seen from Brandon Jennings and Bret Lawrie, do you think it makes sense locking them up this early in their careers?

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therajraj
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http://sports.yahoo.com/...lights/28975009

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