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HoustonGuy
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Join date: Jul 2011
Location: Texas, USA
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http://tnation.t-nation.com/...ghborhood_watch

I am not anonym. Concurrent, multiple accounts are not my bag.

What a weak character assassination attempt.

Continuing on, thirdruffian left off with a very objective, on point post.

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overstand
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Join date: Apr 2010
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thethirdruffian wrote:
So what is known:

1. Zimmerman was neighborhood watch guy. He had the legal right to ask people what they were up to in the neighborhood.

2. Martin was on suspension for 10 days from school and thus not in school when normal kids would be.

3. A fight ensued, unclear who started it, but Zimmerman says Martin attacked him for questioning him.

4. It is not clear who is bigger, to me. Martin is 6'2", which is small to me, but big to a lot of people.

5. Zimmerman was getting his ass beaten. According to multiple witnesses, he was on the ground, Martin on top of him (per above) pounding him. Zimmerman screaming for help.

6. Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest while being beaten.

7. All the stuff about Zimmerman calling him a "coon" or whatever having been debunked as bullshit. By all accounts, Zimmerman had family, friends, and neighbors of many races.

Now, this was clearly an avoidable incident. If Zimmerman was a professional, he would need to be fired and worse because he (apparently) handled the initial contact poorly.

But Zimmerman had the right to confront Martin.

Martin attacked Zimmerman. Now Martin's attack may be justified because he had no idea who Zimmerman was. That would be an issue if Martin was alive and Zimmerman dead. That's not what happened.

Here, Zimmerman shot Martin. Was that justified?

Zimmerman was laying on the ground, no way to escape, no help coming. He was getting his ass beaten.

In such a circumstance, regardless of the "stand your ground" law, he had the right to stop the assault, and did so.

It amazes me at all the so-called liberals on this site who care about their fellow man who are so eager to convict Zimmerman because of political correctness and race-baiting. That's as bad as lynching a black guy in the situation was reversed.


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FrozenNinja
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Join date: May 2009
Location: California, USA
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Hahaha lets see what due process brings

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anonym
Level 3

Join date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4534

HoustonGuy wrote:
What a weak character assassination attempt.


Just to clear this up:

1. My personal computer does not have restricted Internet access.
2. A web site titled American Renaissance does not sound racist.
3. The article does not sound racist.
4. The facts are backed by major news outlets, which I had linked to in order to CORRECT the story.
5. Attacking my character because I didn't fully investigate the site I was referencing is weak sauce.
6. If you feel I have WRITTEN something racist, quote it or STFU.
7. ID, please reread my remarks about your intellectual "contributions". Consider sticking to "x2-ing" those who are better at this than you.
8. Not HG. Sorry, fellas.
9. Again, show some semblance of intellectual honesty and attack the facts rather than writing them off because of the source listed. Remember that they are freely available on numerous other pages.
10. I always round my lists to ten.

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overstand
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Join date: Apr 2010
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FrozenNinja wrote:
Hahaha lets see what due process brings


That's what everyone else has been saying all along, while you and the rest of the race-baiting liberal lynch mob (Iron Dwarf et al.) have been calling for his head since day 1.

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HoustonGuy
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Posts: 7255

FrozenNinja wrote:
Hahaha lets see what due process brings

Uh..... exactly.

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HoustonGuy
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Join date: Jul 2011
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 7255

anonym wrote:
HoustonGuy wrote:
What a weak character assassination attempt.


Just to clear this up:

1. My personal computer does not have restricted Internet access.
2. A web site titled American Renaissance does not sound racist.
3. The article does not sound racist.
4. The facts are backed by major news outlets, which I had linked to in order to CORRECT the story.
5. Attacking my character because I didn't fully investigate the site I was referencing is weak sauce.
6. If you feel I have WRITTEN something racist, quote it or STFU.
7. ID, please reread my remarks about your intellectual "contributions". Consider sticking to "x2-ing" those who are better at this than you.
8. Not HG. Sorry, fellas.
9. Again, show some semblance of intellectual honesty and attack the facts rather than writing them off because of the source listed. Remember that they are freely available on numerous other pages.
10. I always round my lists to ten.

Way to make us look independent dude.

:)

Yeah, that's a smiley for tone.

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anonym
Level 3

Join date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4534

HoustonGuy wrote:
Way to make us look independent dude.

:)

Yeah, that's a smiley for tone.


Bah, the hive mind of that particular critic is so nauseatingly overwhelming that the idea of even ATTEMPTING to prove ourselves as "independent" of one another is pretty laughable.

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Tex Ag
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Join date: Jan 2008
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A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?

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HoustonGuy
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Join date: Jul 2011
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 7255

Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?

If the community was complete, the ownership belongs to the homeowners, who hire property management companies.

This is an interesting point though. Zimmerman, as an owner in the community, was not only attacked but attacked on private property.

Maybe the issue holds validity and maybe not, it would be cool to see links to HOA law.

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overstand
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Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?


He probably doesn't have the "right", but if I follow you into a McDonalds and start questioning your poor diet choices, do you have the "right" to kick my ass?

If you decide you do and start pounding on me, do I then have the right to defend my self?

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groo
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Join date: Aug 2011
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Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?



Sidewalks and streets are generally considered public space. Just by being gated wouldn't necessarily change this. Does the community pay for its own road repairs etc stuff like that would come into play. Certainly it would count as a public space for community members and their guests in relation to law. So in this case relevant public space law would or at least could be argued as applying to a victim that lived in or was invited to the community...I believe in fact this is the angle the DOJ is taking.


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Thomasm122
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Location: Colorado, USA
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He legally does. As far as I am aware, in many cases federal and state laws allow the employees of private contractors the right to talk to people, search them, and detain them IF THE PERSONS THEMSELVES AGREE TO IT. They also have the right to call the cops. A security guard is rented. He's an employee of a developer(s), or further management of the property. He legally has the right to have a conversation with him (if whomever in concern is willing), take him into custody (if whoever it is is that stupid to agree to it), and search him(again...). As well as inform the police of any perceived suspicious activity. However, when it comes to the point that you are following a kid, you have notified the police, and 911 has informed you to not pursue, you gtfo. He should not and had no right to be following the kid after notifying 911. Anything illegal which occurred subsequent to that, I think there's a good case against the perpetrator (in this case, Zimmerman).

Looking at the other thread I just don't understand how someone can say "given the fact that were I myself a private security contractor employee, and saw a suspicious individual, notified the police, I would have followed him, chased him, confronted him repeatedly, and then shot him, while the police were on their way to the community to investigate the activity", and then rebuke the fact that they are fucked up with "let's let due process take care of it, stop playing the racism card you collectivist liberal shitheads".

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Thomasm122
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^ The above was in response to Tex Ag's question "Why did Zimmerman have the right etc..." Forgot to quote

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Thomasm122
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Join date: Feb 2012
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 147

overstand wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?


He probably doesn't have the "right", but if I follow you into a McDonalds and start questioning your poor diet choices, do you have the "right" to kick my ass?

If you decide you do and start pounding on me, do I then have the right to defend my self?


Is there a link to the "numerous witnesses" stating they saw Martin attack Zimmerman?

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groo
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Join date: Aug 2011
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Thomasm122 wrote:
He legally does. As far as I am aware, in many cases federal and state laws allow the employees of private contractors the right to talk to people, search them, and detain them IF THE PERSONS THEMSELVES AGREE TO IT. They also have the right to call the cops. A security guard is rented. He's an employee of a developer(s), or further management of the property. He legally has the right to have a conversation with him (if whomever in concern is willing), take him into custody (if whoever it is is that stupid to agree to it), and search him(again...). As well as inform the police of any perceived suspicious activity. However, when it comes to the point that you are following a kid, you have notified the police, and 911 has informed you to not pursue, you gtfo. He should not and had no right to be following the kid after notifying 911. Anything illegal which occurred subsequent to that, I think there's a good case against the perpetrator (in this case, Zimmerman).

Looking at the other thread I just don't understand how someone can say "given the fact that were I myself a private security contractor employee, and saw a suspicious individual, notified the police, I would have followed him, chased him, confronted him repeatedly, and then shot him, while the police were on their way to the community to investigate the activity", and then rebuke the fact that they are fucked up with "let's let due process take care of it, stop playing the racism card you collectivist liberal shitheads".



I don't know if he really counts as an employee of the HOA in this case.

There are tons of books and studies on gated communities and their poaching of public resources though. And the legal view is going to be very murky as to whether or not the sidewalks in this community are public or private.

Generally a truly wealthy community will set itself up as a minimum type of municipality which is essentially defacto the HOA. However as time goes on and say the cost of fixing the road or the sewer system etc become cost prohibitive they allow more and more encroachment of the surrounding cities....which they have mostly not wanted because of tax issues; but eventually there is a point where its likely having the gating wouldn't be particularly legal any longer as they are essentially using full city services. Some of the gated communities also eventually ask for full regular police patrols which takes away from them being able to argue they are private as well.

I have no clue about this particular community.

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Swolegasm
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Posts: 1312

Thomasm122 wrote:
overstand wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?


He probably doesn't have the "right", but if I follow you into a McDonalds and start questioning your poor diet choices, do you have the "right" to kick my ass?

If you decide you do and start pounding on me, do I then have the right to defend my self?


Is there a link to the "numerous witnesses" stating they saw Martin attack Zimmerman?


http://amren.com/...trayvon-martin/

It appears 1 witness saw him hitting zimmerman the ground. Also about the line he must have done something really bad to get suspended for 5 days. That is BS I got suspended for a week for driving on the grass in school.. in circles.

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Swolegasm
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http://www.myfoxorlando.com/...n#ixzz1phFMGCu4

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overstand
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Join date: Apr 2010
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Thomasm122 wrote:
overstand wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?


He probably doesn't have the "right", but if I follow you into a McDonalds and start questioning your poor diet choices, do you have the "right" to kick my ass?

If you decide you do and start pounding on me, do I then have the right to defend my self?


Is there a link to the "numerous witnesses" stating they saw Martin attack Zimmerman?


When police arrived, Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head. He also had grass stains on the back of his shirt, which is consistent with the statement of a 13 year old boy walking his dog who saw a man in a red shirt (Zimmerman) on the ground being beaten by Trayvon.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/...ood-altercation

Mary Cutcher, another witness, did a TV interview where she claimed "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling". Sanford police reported that they asked Cutcher twice for a statement, which she refused. They asked a third time and she gave a statement which matched Zimmerman's version of events. It was only when she had the opportunity to get on TV did her story change. As far as I'm concerned she has 0 credibility.

http://www.dominionofnewyork.c...

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groo
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Join date: Aug 2011
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Swolegasm wrote:
Thomasm122 wrote:
overstand wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?


He probably doesn't have the "right", but if I follow you into a McDonalds and start questioning your poor diet choices, do you have the "right" to kick my ass?

If you decide you do and start pounding on me, do I then have the right to defend my self?


Is there a link to the "numerous witnesses" stating they saw Martin attack Zimmerman?


http://amren.com/...trayvon-martin/

It appears 1 witness saw him hitting zimmerman the ground. Also about the line he must have done something really bad to get suspended for 5 days. That is BS I got suspended for a week for driving on the grass in school.. in circles.

I do believe he got suspended for missing too many classes which as his grades appeared to be good shouldn't really have mattered too much but hardly something really bad.

As a total aside schools these days are almost over the top on suspending for anything.

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anonym
Level 3

Join date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4534

Swolegasm wrote:
Thomasm122 wrote:
overstand wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?


He probably doesn't have the "right", but if I follow you into a McDonalds and start questioning your poor diet choices, do you have the "right" to kick my ass?

If you decide you do and start pounding on me, do I then have the right to defend my self?


Is there a link to the "numerous witnesses" stating they saw Martin attack Zimmerman?


http://amren.com/...trayvon-martin/

It appears 1 witness saw him hitting zimmerman the ground. Also about the line he must have done something really bad to get suspended for 5 days. That is BS I got suspended for a week for driving on the grass in school.. in circles.


Careful, bro, American Renaissance is a white power web site (as if the name didn't give it away)! I would think the complete lack of derogatory terms in the article and its focus on FACTS rather than emotional outbursts would give away its racial bias, but what do I know.

Apparently, though, people will focus on that instead of the articles posted from reputable news sources that state the exact same thing.

(plus Martin was actually suspended for 10 days, according to some sources)

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HoustonGuy
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Join date: Jul 2011
Location: Texas, USA
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groo wrote:
Thomasm122 wrote:
He legally does. As far as I am aware, in many cases federal and state laws allow the employees of private contractors the right to talk to people, search them, and detain them IF THE PERSONS THEMSELVES AGREE TO IT. They also have the right to call the cops. A security guard is rented. He's an employee of a developer(s), or further management of the property. He legally has the right to have a conversation with him (if whomever in concern is willing), take him into custody (if whoever it is is that stupid to agree to it), and search him(again...). As well as inform the police of any perceived suspicious activity. However, when it comes to the point that you are following a kid, you have notified the police, and 911 has informed you to not pursue, you gtfo. He should not and had no right to be following the kid after notifying 911. Anything illegal which occurred subsequent to that, I think there's a good case against the perpetrator (in this case, Zimmerman).

Looking at the other thread I just don't understand how someone can say "given the fact that were I myself a private security contractor employee, and saw a suspicious individual, notified the police, I would have followed him, chased him, confronted him repeatedly, and then shot him, while the police were on their way to the community to investigate the activity", and then rebuke the fact that they are fucked up with "let's let due process take care of it, stop playing the racism card you collectivist liberal shitheads".



I don't know if he really counts as an employee of the HOA in this case.

There are tons of books and studies on gated communities and their poaching of public resources though. And the legal view is going to be very murky as to whether or not the sidewalks in this community are public or private.

Generally a truly wealthy community will set itself up as a minimum type of municipality which is essentially defacto the HOA. However as time goes on and say the cost of fixing the road or the sewer system etc become cost prohibitive they allow more and more encroachment of the surrounding cities....which they have mostly not wanted because of tax issues; but eventually there is a point where its likely having the gating wouldn't be particularly legal any longer as they are essentially using full city services. Some of the gated communities also eventually ask for full regular police patrols which takes away from them being able to argue they are private as well.

I have no clue about this particular community.

My impression is the assumed exclusivity of this gated community is a misnomer.

We are talking about townhomes. An owned apartment complex with a gate is not a neighborhood of multi-million dollar homes with designated an exclusive municipality district.

Not sure how this would play in to an HOA angle but let's not get confused on terminology.

There is nothing exclusive about a townhome community in sandertown Florida.

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Tex Ag
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Join date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 2811

HoustonGuy wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
A clarification and a question:

Clarification - streets within gated communities are not public space, nor a most spaces where security guards operate, for they are privates spaces (malls, banks, parking lots, etc. are privately held spaces, as are gated communities. The developer is most likely the owner in the case of the latter.)

Question: why does Zimmerman have the right to confront and question Martin?

If the community was complete, the ownership belongs to the homeowners, who hire property management companies.

This is an interesting point though. Zimmerman, as an owner in the community, was not only attacked but attacked on private property.

Maybe the issue holds validity and maybe not, it would be cool to see links to HOA law.


HOAs are extra-legal organizations. The bylaws maybe be the actual law of the land.

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Aggv
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Location: Ohio, USA
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http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes...

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Tex Ag
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Join date: Jan 2008
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I this will all come down to when the confrontation begins.

At the point Zimmerman began to follow

At the point Zimmerman gets out of his car and started questioning

At the point someone takes the first swing.

Context will be key. As several have argued and I agree, Zimmerman following and especially after Martin ran and Zimmerman left his car, Martin has the legal right to defend himself from a threat.

It will come down to at least two lawyers and a judge. If it comes to a jury trail, Zimmerman will be found guilty of something (what I do not know, but menacing seems to be a possibility).

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