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All Red Meat Is Bad for You...
 

Professor X
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jehovasfitness wrote:
orcrist wrote:
MODOK,
As a clinical researcher, I have to second your statements about bias.

There is no such thing as impartial research, only repeatable results and unrepeatable findings. And that means prospective control trials, preferrably blinded and randomized. As with all "studies" that are not repeatable prospective RCT's, you have to "follow the money" to determine the bias and influence in the study design.

If you selected an age-, race-, and socioeconomically-matched cohort and gave half red meat and the other half an equivalent amount of free range organic poultry and fowl, you might see a difference, but you might not. If you followed them for a short period of time, my guess is that the biggest difference you'd see would be from the elevated creatine levels in the red meat. If you followed them for 30 years, who knows?!? I don't think it would be very feasible in a free society to conduct that kind of research.



but, why do we even need it? Do lions need studies to show their natural food is good or bad? I konw you're not arguing anything here, just irks me that everyone lives and dies (lol) by studies.

use logic and common sense. Nutrition doesn't have to be this PhD type of school program to get it.



Not only that, but science gets it wrong sometimes. The worst people for this are the ones who are just now understanding studies for the first time without that background. They don't understand that for the 30 studies they just found saying one thing, there are 35 saying the opposite. The whos, whys, wheres and how much's are the primary concerns.

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jasmincar
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I don't eat steak often but I make a point to train the day I eat it. There is something about steak that makes me recover faster or do better in the gym. Steak=steroid

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Sxio
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MODOK wrote:
I'm sure you know that correlation does not = causation.

I also can't wrap my brain around choosing a food to eat based on its color. Beef is red, bison is red, ostrich is dark reddish reddish....pork is white. So is pork ok and bison not? What color is kangaroo meat down there in Australia? Good or not good?


True, but if someone said to you "Here's a biscuit. It's correlated with dying from Aids, but y'know, correlation doesn't imply causation!"

Would you still eat it?

I agree with Proud Virgin. I'm not telling anyone else they have to cut down. I just think that where's there's smoke there's fire.

I've only eaten kangaroo a few times. It has a very gamey, iron rich taste that I didn't really like that much. It's VERY red in colour before it's cooked. Apparently pretty healthy though because it's not commercially farmed in most cases, so it's omega 3/6/9 ratio's are closer to what nature intended.

I like where this conversation is going though. It's good to examine why we make these choices.

I disagree that JF has a good point to make. He's just telling me I'm wrong. Good for him. But if he was so sure it was safe, I don't think he'd be jumping up and down so much about it.

I still love a good steak from a restaurant every couple of weeks or so. That's one of life's great pleasures. I just don't eat one every day. It's not rocket science. I'm not turning vegan or anything. But I do think that all of these studies saying there are issues inherent can't all be wrong. There's a clear trend being shown, but if you want to ignore it, or say it's a conspiracy, then that's your choice. I for one don't mind cutting back a little. I was eating it every single day as spaghetti bolognese is my after workout meal of choice. Cutting back from that frequency is probably a good idea. Some of you are acting like it's part of your religion to eat red meat or something.

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Professor X
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Biscuits cause AIDs????!!

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ishinator
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MODOK wrote:

Sxio- there is a whole lot of great evidence out there that validates what JF is stating. He isn't being flippant or dismissive, he is saying that there is science out there that dismisses saturated fat as being bad and red meat as being bad. If you are interested I could recommend some reading to you. If not, it sounds like you've got your diet squared away and you are content, so no big deal.


I'm interested.

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orcrist
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jehovasfitness wrote:
orcrist wrote:
MODOK,
As a clinical researcher, I have to second your statements about bias.

There is no such thing as impartial research, only repeatable results and unrepeatable findings. And that means prospective control trials, preferrably blinded and randomized. As with all "studies" that are not repeatable prospective RCT's, you have to "follow the money" to determine the bias and influence in the study design.

If you selected an age-, race-, and socioeconomically-matched cohort and gave half red meat and the other half an equivalent amount of free range organic poultry and fowl, you might see a difference, but you might not. If you followed them for a short period of time, my guess is that the biggest difference you'd see would be from the elevated creatine levels in the red meat. If you followed them for 30 years, who knows?!? I don't think it would be very feasible in a free society to conduct that kind of research.



but, why do we even need it? Do lions need studies to show their natural food is good or bad? I konw you're not arguing anything here, just irks me that everyone lives and dies (lol) by studies.

use logic and common sense. Nutrition doesn't have to be this PhD type of school program to get it.


JF,
I was more referring to the suspected link between food consumption and cancer. The best case I know of where the role of micro-nutrients were uncovered by quality science was the link between low folic acid and birth defects. That was a critical finding that didn't come from "logic and common sense" alone.

I agree that you don't need a PhD do avoid getting fat. But it may take more than a few PhD's to get to the bottom of the cancer story.

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TORO
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Cuts of Hanger Steak twice per day (breakfast and lunch) since about mid December, and I'm feeling great.
If someone could bring up just what it is that the media has it in for Red Meat, I'd very much like to hear.

I've tried to purchase Grass-Fed, but between the expense and the difficulty getting to it, 9 times out of 10 it will be
regular steak from the Butcher, I suppose Grain-Fed, and Commercial Slaughter House.

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2busy
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Fixing this thread.

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jehovasfitness
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I like this vid....



seriously, someone better tell lions that eating zebras will kill them. Fuckin nonsense

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Proud_Virgin
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jehovasfitness wrote:
I like this vid....



seriously, someone better tell lions that eating zebras will kill them. Fuckin nonsense


Are you trying to convince others or yourself?

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jehovasfitness
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I was sharing a funny, yet logical video. heavens me

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forevernade
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If you are all interested in why meat might be good and bad for you, look at some research papers on rats fed certain things:

First, 'palmetic acid' and also 'high dosage iron'.
High dosages of palmetic result in intestinal/rectal problems, or sharply increased mortality. Animal Fat has Palmitic acid: 25?28%, which is as high or higher than other fats cited to be 'bad for you'.
Men have no way to lose iron except to injure and bleed, women will bleed periodically. Women have lower iron levels if they eat the same amount of red meat as men, and have decreased mortality. Chronically high iron has been shown to increase mortality.

Second, 'oelic acid' and 'low iron'.
Oelic acid is the main fatty acid in olive oil, at Oleic acid: 55.0?83.0%. This has been shown to have neutral or positive effects on rat and human health. Animal fat is Oleic acid: 44?47%, which is significantly high, this can have a neutral or positive effect on health. Animal fat is Stearic acid: 12?14%. Dietary stearic acid oxidatively desaturates to oelic acid, so chances are, you are getting even more of that good fat.
When you exercise you deplete iron. Low blood iron can cause a decrease in strength, endurance and increase mortality rates. It is important to replace that iron to keep balance.

So you can see just looking at ONLY TWO factors, the fatty acid profile, and the iron content in red meat, there are good and bad sides to consuming it.
If I were to recommend consumption of it, I would have a moderate amount on training days, and get your iron tested to make sure you do not have high iron levels. You might also want to pick the leanest cut of meat and cover it in olive oil or another oil that is deemed 'good for you' to make up for the loss of animal fat (and thus loss of palmitic acid). If you are looking for more saturated fat in your diet, then I would recommend coconut oil. It has shorter chain fatty acids in it that usually does not result in fat gain in rats, nor any of the problems caused by palmitic acid, but still is metabolised for energy (and thus bone and muscle growth and maintaining body temperature etc). Alternating lean red meat and lean white meat, supplementing with virgin olive oil and virgin coconut oil tends to have the most convincing fatty acid and micro-nutrient profile.

Anyway, that's my 2c.

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Professor X
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forevernade wrote:
If you are all interested in why meat might be good and bad for you, look at some research papers on rats fed certain things:




Yes, because if humans want to know exactly how something will affect them, they should look to an entirely different species for those answers.

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Sxio
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jehovasfitness wrote:

seriously, someone better tell lions that eating zebras will kill them. Fuckin nonsense


Newsflash mate. We're not lions! We don't get driven out of the pack as soon as we're not the alpha to die by ourselves at 28. We live a REALLY long time. Not too many lions die of old age diseases.

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jehovasfitness
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Sxio wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:

seriously, someone better tell lions that eating zebras will kill them. Fuckin nonsense


Newsflash mate. We're not lions! We don't get driven out of the pack as soon as we're not the alpha to die by ourselves at 28. We live a REALLY long time. Not too many lions die of old age diseases.


You missed my point. Let me break it down.

Lions eat meat, a natural food. They've done so since there have been lions. There's nothing in the meat that will kill them.
We eat meat, a natural food (or at least used to be raised that way). We've done that for millions of years (fossil and bone records show this). There's nothing in the meat that will kill us.

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Professor X
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Sxio wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:

seriously, someone better tell lions that eating zebras will kill them. Fuckin nonsense


Newsflash mate. We're not lions! We don't get driven out of the pack as soon as we're not the alpha to die by ourselves at 28. We live a REALLY long time. Not too many lions die of old age diseases.


But...we don't live that long. That is why these discussions make me laugh. The average patient I see over the age of 85 isn't exactly doing jumping jacks and sprinting around the corner. Most also couldn't even digest a triple cheeseburger within a day and are getting by on reduced calories anyway. There is a HUGE difference between "existing longer" and "actually LIVING a much longer life span". If the debate is that studies show you M A Y live 3 years longer by not eating red meat vs increasing the QUALITY of life by eating to be as strong as I can for however long I live..............shouldn't we solve all of those issues that cause people to fall apart over 80 first before we try to live longer than that?

How many truly 100% healthy 85 year olds are there?

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jehovasfitness
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Professor X wrote:
Sxio wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:

seriously, someone better tell lions that eating zebras will kill them. Fuckin nonsense


Newsflash mate. We're not lions! We don't get driven out of the pack as soon as we're not the alpha to die by ourselves at 28. We live a REALLY long time. Not too many lions die of old age diseases.


But...we don't live that long. That is why these discussions make me laugh. The average patient I see over the age of 85 isn't exactly doing jumping jacks and sprinting around the corner. Most also couldn't even digest a triple cheeseburger within a day and are getting by on reduced calories anyway. There is a HUGE difference between "existing longer" and "actually LIVING a much longer life span". If the debate is that studies show you M A Y live 3 years longer by not eating red meat vs increasing the QUALITY of life by eating to be as strong as I can for however long I live..............shouldn't we solve all of those issues that cause people to fall apart over 80 first before we try to live longer than that?

How many truly 100% healthy 85 year olds are there?


exactly. Quality over quantity again. I have maybe 2-3 seniors that I deal with that still kick butt, the vast majority of them though have knee replacments, hip replacements, HD, diabetes...

these very same people I've spent the last year trying to undo the brainwashing that red meat is bad, and organ meats shouldn't be consumed... these people have ditched eggs in favor of cereals/breads/bagels, ditched red meat for chicken breast (not as bad as ditching eggs for cereals)...

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anonym
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I'm not gonna reread this thread, but can I get a show of how many people who have spent time vilifying the quality of meats coming from CAFOs (and promulgating the supposed health risks of that source compared to organic, grass-fed operations) are immediately up in arms over this finding despite the fact that it's entirely realistic to believe that 90% of those people weren't buying organic, grass-fed product?

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jehovasfitness
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Your wording confuses me, but I do think that it's important to consider the source of the meat.

That said, I doubt a study will ever be done looking at it over decades of consumption. So, we really just have to rely on the supposed actions in the body of animals with a higher omega-6 content, etc. Or rely on (again broken record) logic that eating animals that are raised their natural way will always be inherently better for us than eating animals feeding off a non-natural diet along with the numerous drugs prescribed.



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anonym
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jehovasfitness wrote:
Your wording confuses me, but I do think that it's important to consider the source of the meat.


What I mean is, while I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head*, there have been numerous times on this board where the health risks of eating meats obtained from CAFOs have been used as a soapbox to preach the virtues of eating animals coming from an organic, grass-fed/free-range environment.

And yet, once a study comes out that suggests there MIGHT be a risk to eating above-average amounts of red meat, mouths foam, fangs are bared and claws come out in a zealous attempt to rip it to shreds... even though it is EXTREMELY likely that MOST of the people in that study were eating the same ole ugly, antibiotic-pumped, fecal-covered and bacteria-infested trash that many people on this board frown upon.

I agree the study has various issues, but I still found the reaction interesting.


*and I'm not gonna search for it, so if ya don't believe me we will just have to agree to disagree.

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roybot
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Sxio wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:

seriously, someone better tell lions that eating zebras will kill them. Fuckin nonsense


Newsflash mate. We're not lions! We don't get driven out of the pack as soon as we're not the alpha to die by ourselves at 28. We live a REALLY long time. Not too many lions die of old age diseases.


Define "old age diseases"...

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anonym
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On the other hand, if eating CAFO meat products really DO affect one's health to a clinically observable/significant degree, wouldn't it have been borne out in this collected data in a way that all the listed objections would be unable to adequately explain?

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Sxio
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You guys make interesting points. Through my work I have a few quite elderly clients who are in tremendous shape. I also know people who are 10 years younger who are just done. They're shot.

Now we can all talk about what may have caused this till the cows come home (and we eat them) but at the end of the day, I don't know why some people are finished by 68 and others are still sharp at 80, but I'm doing what I can to live a healthy life. Not to have a great 30s and 40s, but to be functioning optimally for as long as possible.

I still indulge. I still do things that are 'bad'. But rarely. If you're eating grass fed meat, that's definitely a big plus but I can't see how eating it every day is a good idea when there's other great forms of protein out there.

I'm not trying to sound like a zealot. I'm just for moderation. Steak ain't that great that it should be eaten every day. 2-3 times a week? Hell yeah. But not every day. And definitely with a big serve of veges to help move it along your digestive tract.

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Professor X
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Sxio wrote:
You guys make interesting points. Through my work I have a few quite elderly clients who are in tremendous shape. I also know people who are 10 years younger who are just done. They're shot.

Now we can all talk about what may have caused this till the cows come home (and we eat them) but at the end of the day, I don't know why some people are finished by 68 and others are still sharp at 80, but I'm doing what I can to live a healthy life. Not to have a great 30s and 40s, but to be functioning optimally for as long as possible.

I still indulge. I still do things that are 'bad'. But rarely. If you're eating grass fed meat, that's definitely a big plus but I can't see how eating it every day is a good idea when there's other great forms of protein out there.

I'm not trying to sound like a zealot. I'm just for moderation. Steak ain't that great that it should be eaten every day. 2-3 times a week? Hell yeah. But not every day. And definitely with a big serve of veges to help move it along your digestive tract.



That depends on what your goals are. People who talk like you usually don't have 20" arms.

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Sxio
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Professor X wrote:

That depends on what your goals are. People who talk like you usually don't have 20" arms.


I'm sure there's plenty of reasons why we don't rely on people with 20"+ arms for all our nutritional advice regarding health.




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