The Intelligent & Relentless Pursuit of Muscle™
Velocity Life
 
Clean Bulking
1
 

tmartinez
Level 100

Join date: May 2009
Location:
Posts: 76

Many of us are still in the phase of shedding fat. If that is where you are at, then stay focused on that one goal until you reach the level you desire. Fat loss needs to be an obsession.

However, once we lose the fat, it is time for many of us to build some muscle. Whether it‚??s because the V-Diet gave you the gym-obsession or you did the V-Diet after years of training, many of us still want to get ‚??hyooge‚?? in the good way.

So, let this be a thread where we can share clean bulking techniques, recipes, and stories.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

tmartinez
Level 100

Join date: May 2009
Location:
Posts: 76

Personally, I simply started by eating more of good HSMs and clean eating I developed during the fat loss period. I‚??ve sought to increase my calories by 500 or so per day, and my protein up to 200-250 grams per day. (I weigh around 180 lbs). This has also increased carbs somewhat to 150 grams or so per day. I freely admit that this is very conservative plan so far, but I really don‚??t want to wear fat jeans again. I‚??d be interested in hearing what others are doing to try to gain muscle while still keeping the fat gain to a minimum.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

nateschmidt24
Level 10

Join date: Nov 2009
Location:
Posts: 610

Personally I'm still in the first phase, I'd like to see some abs before I bulk. Basically I tried a bit of Thib's HP Mass while still eating very conservatively calorie-wise. (I don't count just meat and veggie meals) and whether it was in my head or for real, I feel a bit thicker in the shoulders and upper chest. Anyways I've been thinking a lot about how I'm going to clean bulk when I'm ready. I think I'm going to just add to what I'm already eating.

Currently:
Breakfast
4 eggs and veggies
Lunch
meat veggies and beans/lentils
Dinner
meat veggies and beans/lentils
Bedtime
2 scoops MD
(basically the diet from the four hour body)

I read a post on Marks Daily Apple about muscle gain and he suggest an alternative to GOMAD of ADEAD or A Dozen Eggs A Day. So that's what I"m going to go with, I'll just add 4 eggs to lunch dinner and bedtime. I'm also going to turn the MD shake into a full smoothine probably with berries and avocado, and add some carbs post training, or breakfast on non-workout days, probably a sweet potato. If I find i still need more cals I'm going to add a tablespoon or 2 of coconut oil to the smoothie.

I read something of Chad Waterbury's (not sure how current) but basically it was cutting was all meat and veggies at breakfast, lunch and dinner, and a small handful of nuts or cheese etc for 2 snacks while cutting, and then bulking was the same just add fruit to every meal and double the snack serving size.

As far as training I haven't really decided yet what the plan will be. I'm currently on Eric Cressey's Show and Go which will last me another 15 weeks. I kinda hope I'll be ready to bulk by then :)

I figure something by Thib, whether HP Mass or an older more "traditional" Bodybuilding program.

here's the MDA link, very interesting as it's basically a low carb bulk.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/...t-build-muscle/

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Weevo
Level 10

Join date: Sep 2008
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 755

Once I cut down, I just increased my peri-workout nutrition while keep total calories around maintenance levels. Since my post workout meal is usually my first of the day, it can be f**king huge. Ergo I get lots of peri-workout nutrition without letting total intake get out of control. Worked nicely, especially with Thibs HPM program.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chris Shugart
Director of Content

Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 17069

Something a lot of folks miss is that it only takes 800 to 1000 calories over maintenance levels for a mass phase. That is, you won't magically build muscle by bumping that to 2000 over maintenance; you'll just add more fat and the same amount of muscle.

But, it often seems like you're adding more muscle with a very high calorie bulk or "dirty bulk". A lot of people can't tell the difference between adding an inch of muscle on their arms and an inch of fat.

That aside, 800 to 1000 over maintenance has another advantage: it's easy to get in with clean foods. No need to resort to junk food and reinforce or create bad dietary habits and addictions that can't easily be removed once the mass phase is over. That's crucial.

Finally, remember that what works for the steroid-using guy doesn't work for the natural. And sadly, that's where most mass phase advice comes from. So you have to be careful there.

Here's my full article on this. It's a bit dated, but most of the info is still sound. (If I wrote it today I'd have better food selections.)

http://www.t-nation.com/...out_getting_fat

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Japek
Level 10

Join date: Oct 2009
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

I've decided to put on some size/strength in my legs this winter. Without talking about my program, taking in more calories is probably the best way to do this. However, I simply can't bring myself to eat the amount of calories necessary to put on muscle. Upping my carb intake just isn't an option. So, instead of changing my eating patterns all day long, I only change them surrounding my workout period.

I take in Surge Workout Fuel before and during, then Surge Recovery after. I have seen noticeable results in 8 weeks (which hasn't really happened since I took creatine for the first time). These extra calories and carbs were all I really needed to put on the size/strength I wanted. To boot, my BF% dropped down a little bit.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

nateschmidt24
Level 10

Join date: Nov 2009
Location:
Posts: 610

Here's sort of aside based on what Chris said. What's the best way to track progress then? To make sure we're gaining lean mass, and at what point it's just extra fat? Scale weight obviously will be flawed, but even measurements could be as well? Or is it best to just go slow and steady with clean food as long as the scale is going up slowly?

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chris Shugart
Director of Content

Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 17069

Japek wrote:
So, instead of changing my eating patterns all day long, I only change them surrounding my workout period.

I take in Surge Workout Fuel before and during, then Surge Recovery after. I have seen noticeable results in 8 weeks (which hasn't really happened since I took creatine for the first time). These extra calories and carbs were all I really needed to put on the size/strength I wanted. To boot, my BF% dropped down a little bit.



For those wanting to stay lean and add muscle, or for those who know they just don't handle carbs well, this plan can work very well.

Just focus the carbs around the workout time with targeted supplements (I'm partial to FiNiBARS) and keeps carbs very low the rest of the day. I dig it.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Barachiel
Level 10

Join date: Sep 2008
Location: California, USA
Posts: 961

In my experience how you train aslo affects the effectiveness of the clean bulk.

when overcomplicated it seems to go slwoer. My best times for gaining size my routine consisted of Squats, Bench, and Pull Ups. Mostly squats though, but that was it.

Kept it heavy lots of volume, and watched my body finally break the 200 mark.

I only wish I had Surge back then. Folks don't realize it's lot harder to get your calorie intake up there when you actually care about what you put in your body.


@Japek - Glad to hear you got it worked out

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chris Shugart
Director of Content

Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 17069

nateschmidt24 wrote:
Here's sort of aside based on what Chris said. What's the best way to track progress then? To make sure we're gaining lean mass, and at what point it's just extra fat? Scale weight obviously will be flawed, but even measurements could be as well? Or is it best to just go slow and steady with clean food as long as the scale is going up slowly?


A method I've always liked is a combo of the mirror, an "ab watch," and the fattest area pinch.

1. Mirror: Pretty obvious as long as you don't turn sideways, suck in etc. Photos are even better.

2. Ab watch: Once you're lean -- and I'm one of those annoying guys who think it's crazy to bulk when you're already too fat -- then you probably have a good idea of your abdominal visibility state. Maybe you're a 6-packer, 4-packer or 2-packer.

Using just a visual scan of that area, you can judge how much fat you're packing on. (Unless you store fat mostly in the sub-abdominal area; those guys can be fat and bloated looking and still have visible abs - very dangerous condition, health wise.) If you visually judge yourself to be 9& then you may want to stop any mass phase at 12%, or if you go from 6 to 2 pack. The important thing is to have that visual cut-off point. Don't be one of those guys who only admires his growing shoulder while being blind to his expanding-way-too-fast, pregnant-looking belly.

3. Fattest area pinch: Dan Duchaine used to talk about this one. Don't do a whole body fat test with calipers, but get a cheap set and pinch only your fattest area - love handle, side of naval, etc. Using just that one measurement can tell you a lot about how much fat you're losing or gaining. You'll soon develop an idea of where you want to cut off any bulking cycle.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

nateschmidt24
Level 10

Join date: Nov 2009
Location:
Posts: 610

Here's some info from Coach Poliquin, I belive some of it made an appearance in Chris' "Get Big Without Getting Fat". What I found interesting was that even when bulking carbs should be low (other than post-workout) for most people who are not carb tolerant.

"
For about 70 percent of the population who is not carb tolerant, two grams per pound is good for mass gains; it can make a huge difference. Personally, I couldn‚??t get above 192 pounds until champion bodybuilder Milos Sarcev convinced me to get two grams of protein per pound of body weight. In a matter of eight weeks‚?? time I was up to 205 pounds, lean.

That being said, if an individual is carb tolerant (i.e., handles carbohydrates very well), that value would drop to 1 to 1.5 grams per pound of body weight. Someone like Christian Thibaudeau, who‚??s not carb tolerant, should be getting 2 grams per pound. But I‚??d say 1 to 1.5 grams for a guy like Milos Sarcev, who would be able to wake up and drink a gallon mixture of 50 percent maple syrup and 50 percent dextrose without it affecting his blood sugar. Guys like Milos need to get 70 percent of their calories from carbs.

The bottom line is that carb intake has to be individualized to an extent. Still, most people don‚??t ‚??deserve‚?? the carbs they eat. The rule for most people is this: You have to earn your carbs!"

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/...ss_Gaining.aspx

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

zeik09
Level 1

Join date: Feb 2010
Location:
Posts: 52

I am especially interested in this topic. Now that the fat is gone, I've been trying over the last year and a half to focus on strength gains while keeping low body fat. My workouts are focused on the four main lifts (squat, deadlift, overhead press, and bench press). I'm 35 yo, ~180lbs, and sub10% bodyfat. Most of the guys I see pushing and pulling big weights have that bloated, puffy look. I'm not about that. I'm sorry, but a 300lb guy deadlifting 500lbs isn't that impressive. But, a 180lb guy pulling 500lbs...that's what I'm after. I've been bitten by the powerlifting bug...I'm now doing two powerlifting meets this year.

I'm looking for tips/advise/other stories of the pursuit of strength while eating lean and clean, especially clean bulking ideas.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chris Shugart
Director of Content

Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 17069

nateschmidt24 wrote:
Here's sort of aside based on what Chris said. What's the best way to track progress then? To make sure we're gaining lean mass, and at what point it's just extra fat? Scale weight obviously will be flawed, but even measurements could be as well? Or is it best to just go slow and steady with clean food as long as the scale is going up slowly?



UPDATE: Dr. Lowery is working on an article related to this topic. Very intriguing stuff. Stay tuned!

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chris Shugart
Director of Content

Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 17069

zeik09 wrote:

I'm looking for tips/advise/other stories of the pursuit of strength while eating lean and clean, especially clean bulking ideas.



If you're not already, I think the "magic" lies in part in taking care of peri-workout nutrition. Make sure those extra calories and carbs "go where there supposed to go" -- to muscle. Could be as simple as FINiBAR before training, Surge Recovery after.

That's 600 smart, tactical calories on top of maintenance cals. And you may only need as little as 800 total over maintenance, so that's a good, clean start.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

zeik09
Level 1

Join date: Feb 2010
Location:
Posts: 52

Chris Shugart wrote:
If you're not already, I think the "magic" lies in part in taking care of peri-workout nutrition. Make sure those extra calories and carbs "go where there supposed to go" -- to muscle. Could be as simple as FINiBAR before training, Surge Recovery after.

That's 600 smart, tactical calories on top of maintenance cals. And you may only need as little as 800 total over maintenance, so that's a good, clean start.



Thanks Chris. I've really been trying to focus on my peri-workout nutrion, specifically with whole, clean foods. I've also been working in "tactical" pulse fasts to keep things in check. I've been trying to watch the budget, so the pulse fasts, FINiBAR, and Surge Recovery adds up, if you know what I mean. With what I described earlier, which is more benefical, pulse fasts, or the products for peri-workout nutrition? Or should I cycle between the two options?

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

Chris Shugart
Director of Content

Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 17069

zeik09 wrote:
Chris Shugart wrote:
If you're not already, I think the "magic" lies in part in taking care of peri-workout nutrition. Make sure those extra calories and carbs "go where there supposed to go" -- to muscle. Could be as simple as FINiBAR before training, Surge Recovery after.

That's 600 smart, tactical calories on top of maintenance cals. And you may only need as little as 800 total over maintenance, so that's a good, clean start.



Thanks Chris. I've really been trying to focus on my peri-workout nutrion, specifically with whole, clean foods. I've also been working in "tactical" pulse fasts to keep things in check. I've been trying to watch the budget, so the pulse fasts, FINiBAR, and Surge Recovery adds up, if you know what I mean. With what I described earlier, which is more benefical, pulse fasts, or the products for peri-workout nutrition? Or should I cycle between the two options?



The Pulse Fast can be very effective at just one Pulse day per week, say, every Monday.

You could then use tactical peri-workout supps only around the longest, toughest weight training workouts. So, on deadlift/squat day, but not on arm day, which doesn't take as much of a toll on the body. Could be as simple as FINiBAR pre-workout. That's $1. 46 for a pre-lifting meal. Not bad.


  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

gustavopacho
Level 10

Join date: Feb 2005
Location: California, USA
Posts: 996

Chris Shugart wrote:
Something a lot of folks miss is that it only takes 800 to 1000 calories over maintenance levels for a mass phase. That is, you won't magically build muscle by bumping that to 2000 over maintenance; you'll just add more fat and the same amount of muscle.

But, it often seems like you're adding more muscle with a very high calorie bulk or "dirty bulk". A lot of people can't tell the difference between adding an inch of muscle on their arms and an inch of fat.

That aside, 800 to 1000 over maintenance has another advantage: it's easy to get in with clean foods. No need to resort to junk food and reinforce or create bad dietary habits and addictions that can't easily be removed once the mass phase is over. That's crucial.

Finally, remember that what works for the steroid-using guy doesn't work for the natural. And sadly, that's where most mass phase advice comes from. So you have to be careful there.

Here's my full article on this. It's a bit dated, but most of the info is still sound. (If I wrote it today I'd have better food selections.)

http://www.T-Nation.com/...out_getting_fat


I'm with Chris on this one. You don't need alot of calories to add LEAN MASS. Just a couple hundred put in during your Peri-Workout nutrition is perfect. Why work so hard to get lean and then bulk up to add even more fat...and your body will do what it is used to and pack it back on your primary fat stores.
I actually took a couple of months just to maintain my low bodyfat so my body will get the message that this is my new set point. People just rush to add more mass after months and months of dieting just to look like shit again. And then end up dissatisfied and start the process all over again.
Being natural is harder than anything in bodybuilding. Eating and training will be different since you don't have the extra assistance to increase muscle protein synthesis. Don't get me wrong, you can still add quality mass....it will be slower than being assisted.
But while maintaining a low bodyfat...you will see those muscular gains a whole lot clearer than if you had two inches of fat covering your arms. Like me before lol.
I like being under 10 percent and seeing my strength and size go up slowly AND CONSISTENTLY. It is so worth it guys. You look great year round and people do notice the changes...you can't hide it.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
 

trimtabber79
Level 5

Join date: Jan 2011
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 93

Great to hear from you, Gus. I miss your Physique Challenge logs-talk about "The Grind".

So how short of a period do you think you can go before a set-point is maintained and your body is used to maintaining a certain lean-ness? The bulking/cutting crap drives me nuts. I'd just rather pound away at one goal for a long time.

  Post New Thread | Reply | Quote | Report
1