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Army Testing New PT Test
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cdt_locke
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http://www.army.mil/...test/index.html

Personally I am for the change. I've felt from the beginning that the test should include more realistic tasks. I have heard some negativity from others though, what do all of you think that have been doing it for a while?

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PlayoffsOrBust
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No situps, shorter run, and more explosive movements? I'm down.

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npr386
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Meh. I think there are positives to both the traditional PT tests and the new combat tests. Marine Corps does a PFT and CFT, so why not do both?

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cdt_locke
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npr386 wrote:
Meh. I think there are positives to both the traditional PT tests and the new combat tests. Marine Corps does a PFT and CFT, so why not do both?


I think that is what they are doing. The way I understand it, there's the new APRT, "The five events include: 60-yard shuttle run, one-minute rower (exercise outlined in TC 3.22-20), standing long-jump, one-minute push-up, 1.5 mile run."

and the ACRT, "ACRT will be executed in the Army Combat Uniform, Advanced Combat Helmet, and weapon, and includes a 400-meter run, hurdles, a high crawl, casualty drag, sprints, and several other movement drills."

The graphic on the link is what the ACRT would look like I think.

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Mad HORSE
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I don't think there's any one way to measure military fitness. I had a power lifter in my shop that couldn't run a mile to save his life, but could pick up an eight inch valve and walk with it like it was just a sack of groceries. Was he fit? In a manner of speaking. Was he fit enough to do his job and do it well? Yeah, actually.

I'm in the AF, and my perception might be different than what the other services see though. I think our current PT test is a joke, but we dn't really have a need for 'combat PT' test.

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IPB
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I would need to see how they are going to measure the row to voice my opinion on that. Alhtough I'm a bit skeptical on how they will fit that in. One thing about the traditional is all you need is few NCO's and a long stretch of raod. Where are they going to get all these rowing machines and with what budget? It's goign to make company wide PT tests an all day event.

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HolyMacaroni
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IPB wrote:
It's goign to make company wide PT tests an all day event.


yes, i am not down with this aspect of it

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cdt_locke
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Well, the row isn't like a row on a machine, it's basically a sit up where you lay back down, then sit up without hands blah blah, but its like a sit up, so I don't think it would be a huge deal in that respect.

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steadfastred
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Great change - but they didn't include pull-ups because they didn't want to spend the money to install pull-up bars at all bases... kind of lame.

Pull-ups should be part of this test. Nixing situps! Win.

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IPB
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cdt_locke wrote:
Well, the row isn't like a row on a machine, it's basically a sit up where you lay back down, then sit up without hands blah blah, but its like a sit up, so I don't think it would be a huge deal in that respect.

So what does the soldier do with their arms? Either way it still sounds like a sit-up to me.

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cdt_locke
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When laying in the down position, the arms are stretched fully out away from the body parallel to the ground with palms facing inwards. Then as you sit up they come up with your body, and when the soldier is in the up position, the arms are pointing forward and again parallel to the ground, palms facing inward.

Yes, it is essentially a sit-up variation.

http://video.about.com/...m-Up-Drills.htm

In the above video, the rower starts at 1:30

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IPB
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As someone who used to adminster the PT test, I can only imagine the crying that would go on for reps not counted on those due to form issues!

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HolyMacaroni
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just took the PRT this morning at fort benning. they still don't have standards in terms of what qualifies you as good/bad/passing ect. they were extremely strict on form, and the fact that they used two testers at every station minus the running portion requires you to have a ton of cadre.

the way the make you do the pushups totally killed my score. i am used to maxing out (78) pushups way before 2min time is called. today i barely nudged out 45 pushups before i collapsed (there is no rest position, and your hands must be directly under your shoulder)

granted, i did chest/tri/shoulder yesterday, so that could be a viable excuse, but whatever.

the 'rower' thing was really lame.

the sprint is whatever.

the standing long jump is whatever.

the 1.5 mile is so much better for fat kids. haha.

no rest betweeen stations is cool.

overall i like it. granted i'm a young infantry officer. i'm not sure how the rest of the army is going to embrace it.


edit - i think there's a CRT schedualed for sometime this month, will try it out and let you guys know what i think. IMO i think i'll really like it a lot

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IPB
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Nice feedback!

What does it take to get the PT patch these days? Hell I don't even know if they still do it, but it used to a good tool to motivate soldiers.

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HolyMacaroni
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a combined score of 270 with a minimum of 90/90/90 in each event adjusted for age

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IPB
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I think that was the same as when I was in. The damn run ruined it for me, always maxed PU and SU, but could never get down to 12:54 for the run, normally tapped out just over 13.

I always got a kick out of the fact that myself and a few other guys with the patch always went in to get weighed and taped to make sure we weren't too fat!

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HolyMacaroni
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haha yah, i'm like 35lbs over the weight limit for my height

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cdt_locke
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Ya thanks for the feedback. From what youve said I will like the new one better as well. shortening the run sells it for me... but the pushup portion sounds pretty lame. Anyhow I'm sure it'll be forever until it trickles down to cadet land, unfortunately.

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Ski_USMC
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Mad HORSE wrote:
I don't think there's any one way to measure military fitness. I had a power lifter in my shop that couldn't run a mile to save his life, but could pick up an eight inch valve and walk with it like it was just a sack of groceries. Was he fit? In a manner of speaking. Was he fit enough to do his job and do it well? Yeah, actually...


I would like to state that military fitness is a matter of purpose. Many Marines bash the other services for not being in the same shape but really how much running does someone who works on ship or on an Air Force base really need to do when they're job does not require them to fight.

Now to measure military fitness: If you are a Marine, or are some combat-oriented soldier, physical fitness training (or tests if someone can figure out how to implement) need to involve load bearing at patrol pace with TO/E weapons and PPE. In addition, Marines and combat-oriented soldiers, need to be able to drag a buddy in full PPE. Majority of Marine grunts, combat arms, and direct combat support already train like the above. The challenge to everyone else to implement a similar standard.

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jmarshburn
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It is important to understand that the APFT was never designed as a primary assessment of combat readiness. It is a fitness assessment that measures several specific fitness attributes. From FM 3-22.20 (the Army PT Manual) the push-ups measure the endurance of the chest, shoulder and tricep muscles; the sit-ups measure the endurance of the abdominal and hip flexor muscles; and the 2 mile run assesses the soldier's cardiovasular endurance and the strength of their leg muscles.

My point is that the APFT is not bad at measuring what it is designed to measure, and it takes no equipment other than a stop watch and a length of road... it can be and has been performed just about anywhere.

I think it is great that the Army is looking seriously about changing their (our) fitness assessment, however this from HolyMac concerns me... we can in no way make it easier to pass the APFT just because soldiers are coming in the Army less fit than ever:

HolyMacaroni wrote:
... the 'rower' thing was really lame.

the sprint is whatever.

the standing long jump is whatever.

the 1.5 mile is so much better for fat kids. haha.



In addition it is important to understand that combat arms units view the APFT as (1) an easy day of PT and (2) a wasted day of PT. Infantry companies and other combat arms units use a varitey of physical assessments to determine the combat fitness of their organization.

In my company we conduct a quarterly 12-mile road march under load to EIB standard (12 miles in less than 4 hours). We also conduct a quarterly 5 mile run in under 40 minutes (Ranger standard). Some of my platoons do a varitey of other assessments to include things like "Operator Ugly" from militaryathlete.com.

In the end, I hope that the final incarnation of the new Army fitness test doesn't hurt the force by making it easier for people to pass. I have seen this "dumbing down" of standards for the past few years disguised as change to adapt to an Army at war.

Just a few thought from an old Infantry soldier!

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DirtyM
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From jmarshburn:

"In my company we conduct a quarterly 12-mile road march under load to EIB standard (12 miles in less than 4 hours)."

Not sniping you-- but isn't EIB standard still 12 miles in less than 3 hours?

FWIW- I've taken the APRT twice, and like anything 'new and improved' I'm pretty skeptical. But, I think the Rower- although lame in some people's opinion, is more challenging than someone holding your feet while you do situps. Yeah, it looks gay while doing it no doubt. What I'm hoping is that the long jump and shuttle run get people to do more explosive training and lower body development.

I guess I'd qualify as an old Infantry Soldier too, and it used to be "How fast did you run the 2 mile? What's your 5 mile time?" You're a stud if you ran under 12 minutes, and around 30 min for the 5 miler. Going to the gym meant bench, pullups, bi's/tri's and maybe shoulder presses- all mirror-muscles. Working legs only "made you run slower..." Dumb. And now my lower back is paying the price for the imbalance.

On another note, the kids coming in today are weaker and more atrophied than even those ten years ago. I see young men who cannot do ONE correct situp, or ONE correct pushup. Not. Even. One. Grasping a pullup bar and just hanging requires a spotter because they haven't the strength to just hang. It isn't so much the FAT kids joining, there are far more under weight/stick-boys showing up. I was skeptical of PRT (3-22.20), but I think it has its place- times change. The Army has, and will always be about 5-10 years behind but I believe this is a positive step towards realistic fitness objectives.

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jmarshburn
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DirtyM wrote:
From jmarshburn:

"In my company we conduct a quarterly 12-mile road march under load to EIB standard (12 miles in less than 4 hours)."

Not sniping you-- but isn't EIB standard still 12 miles in less than 3 hours?


My mistake, you are absolutely correct... snipe away! I screwed up and had to type the entire response twice and wasn't paying as close attention as I should have...

JM

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Nards
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The thing I like about a 2 mile run is in my opinion a guy that can do that can likely ruck all day long. Sure it's not much further than 1.5 miles (how much further we'll have to leave to the scientist types) but it's just the right "long" distance to show yo can do more than run for the bus.

I remember guys though that were self-proclaimed "PT Gods" that looked like shit after a simple 10 mile ruck march. They were about 140lbs and the ruck was 45lbs as I recall...so it was almost a third of their weight. Since I was the fatty (215 at 6') I was so fucking gladdy glads that we weren't running.

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DirtyM
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Nards wrote:
The thing I like about a 2 mile run is in my opinion a guy that can do that can likely ruck all day long. Sure it's not much further than 1.5 miles (how much further we'll have to leave to the scientist types) but it's just the right "long" distance to show yo can do more than run for the bus.

I remember guys though that were self-proclaimed "PT Gods" that looked like shit after a simple 10 mile ruck march. They were about 140lbs and the ruck was 45lbs as I recall...so it was almost a third of their weight. Since I was the fatty (215 at 6') I was so fucking gladdy glads that we weren't running.



Going to have to disagree. In fact, unless I'm misunderstanding- it seems as though you somewhat contradict yourself. You state how 'PT Gods' or guys who could score high on the APFT would crash/burn on a simple 10 mile ruck, while you being a more solidly built 215lb dude had no problem with the same. Concur and have witnessed the same.

Running ability /= Rucking ability. You're advocating a return to a two mile run, which would favor the stick-boys and hurt the Clydesdales. A fast two mile or five mile runner is not an indicator of a guy who can ruck all day long. Running long distance helps you...run long distance.

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Nards
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Yeah, sorry, I did contradict myself.
Maybe what I should say is that the 2 miler should be paired with a ruck march the next day or something.

It's just I was talking to a buddy that likes to walk around our city and thinks he's getting mad exercise (I frequently join him, drinking beer) but I will other times run (preparing for a 1/2 Marathon this December) and he thinks running doesn't show how far you can walk, while I said a guy that can run even just 3 miles can certainly out-walk the guy that can't run 3 miles.

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